New Scope wheels

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CustomMetal
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by CustomMetal

I canceled my order after the Tour stiffness review and you confirming the stiffness issue. I go for carbon spokes becuase i want the stiffness when climbing. I've gone for another set of Stradas as they are developing something new which will have the stiffness of my 55/60s but be a bit shallower and only 1116g. Plus only £2700
Allegra- Steel Lugs TBC
Alya- Ti Climbing TBC
Bertha- TT 9.8kg
Matilda - Ti/Carbon Race TBC
Perdita- Ti Turbo bike 8kg
Serenity- Ti Gravel 9.5kg/8.9kg
Verity- Ti Aero 8.2kg


All weights with pedals,cages & garmin mount

CogInTheMachine
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by CogInTheMachine

Would you link to the Tour Magazine review? I can't find that.

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C36
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by C36

unless I missed something on the explanations (my german is... so so) Tour mag seems to carry errors on the stiffness values (looks like wrong copy paste) and I tried to correct them using the % difference they listed with their reference wheels, hopefully they will correct with the exact figures.

I can only recomend buying the magazine to get the other details (aero and so on) https://kiosk.delius-klasing.de/publica ... 526574628d

But in short this is how the newer wheels sit on the STW ranking

Image

Great performance from Partingon exceeding the Mavic Ultimates STW, both sharing hooks (the Cadex ranking 3 and 4th do not) and rim-tapeless design, the mavic being 1 mm wider and 5.5 taller. I was expecting more from the Cadex Max and Syncros SL (despite being HL).

Just completely missed the Partingon price... 7500€! that is more than double Mavic Ultimates (retail as low as 3200€)

RDY
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by RDY

Seems like very poor performance from the Scopes on the stiffness front, especially given how much deeper they are than most of the wheels here. I expect the combination of very low flange hubs with carbon spokes is not in their favor.

cajer
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Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:26 am

by cajer

Can someone share the aero performance including yaw vs drag chart (if avaible) of the scope wheels? It doesn't seem possible to buy just a single issue of the magazine in digital format....

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C36
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by C36

cajer wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2024 4:45 pm
Can someone share the aero performance including yaw vs drag chart (if avaible) of the scope wheels? It doesn't seem possible to buy just a single issue of the magazine in digital format....
There is no charts, just a gap with 404, but unclear what version, if that is the 2016 they used as reference for ages, then it scored 222W but quite sure they updated the tire size in the meantime so... I have no idea what was their reference point. Not sure if any german speaker on their forum has more details.

cajer
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by cajer

222W seems like it would be a poor performance compared to the ones listed above.

RDY
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by RDY

People were taking their marketing slides as gospel when these launched. Who knew that it could be a crock of BS :oops: Though to be fair, I doubt stiffness virtually indistinguishable to Roval Alpinists on a pair of 65s with carbon spokes was expected by anyone ...

alanyu
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by alanyu

RDY wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2024 11:20 am
People were taking their marketing slides as gospel when these launched. Who knew that it could be a crock of BS :oops: Though to be fair, I doubt stiffness virtually indistinguishable to Roval Alpinists on a pair of 65s with carbon spokes was expected by anyone ...
The stiffness is as expected with Scope's setup. Below is what I posted in Roval thread:
alanyu wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2024 5:39 pm

2. Frontal width: CX-ray 0.9 mm, Aerolite II 0.7 mm. Carbon 0.9-1.6 mm based on different models, but the thinner the worse lateral stiffness, and it can be worse than steel spoke. (T700s composite with resin has a smaller modulus than SS302)

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C36
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by C36

alanyu wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2024 5:39 pm
2. Frontal width: CX-ray 0.9 mm, Aerolite II 0.7 mm. Carbon 0.9-1.6 mm based on different models, but the thinner the worse lateral stiffness, and it can be worse than steel spoke. (T700s composite with resin has a smaller modulus than SS302)
Last itme I check, T700SC with resin had a Young modulus (stiffness) around 230GPA depending on resin % when SS is in the low 180. That is a roughtly 25% higher material stiffness and they do have more cross section, then leading to a significantly stiffer spoke (that seem to match what all spokes put on a pull bench display). Or am I missing something? to me the key in stiff CF spoked wheels and the flexible ones may be on the rim vertical stiffness and its ability to preserve the spoke tension, something the Scope, the Craft racing or Hunt do not achieve compare to the Cadex, or Lun Hyper for example

alanyu
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by alanyu

C36 wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2024 9:54 am
alanyu wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2024 5:39 pm
2. Frontal width: CX-ray 0.9 mm, Aerolite II 0.7 mm. Carbon 0.9-1.6 mm based on different models, but the thinner the worse lateral stiffness, and it can be worse than steel spoke. (T700s composite with resin has a smaller modulus than SS302)
Last itme I check, T700SC with resin had a Young modulus (stiffness) around 230GPA depending on resin % when SS is in the low 180. That is a roughtly 25% higher material stiffness and they do have more cross section, then leading to a significantly stiffer spoke (that seem to match what all spokes put on a pull bench display). Or am I missing something? to me the key in stiff CF spoked wheels and the flexible ones may be on the rim vertical stiffness and its ability to preserve the spoke tension, something the Scope, the Craft racing or Hunt do not achieve compare to the Cadex, or Lun Hyper for example
Wrong. From Toray data sheet, T700S raw fiber has a modulus of 230 Gpa, while composite with resin is only 135 Gpa. This is a close number to the factory test.

Moreover, lateral stiffness is beyond a "pull" show, it's a convolution of pulling and bending under real load. This is why an aero spoke wheel has worse lateral stiffness than a round spoke wheel even when the spoke cross section aera, and everthing else are the same, or wing 20 is laterally stiffer than cx ray even both the same weight spoke but wing 20 being less aero ratio.

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C36
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by C36

alanyu wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2024 10:33 am
C36 wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2024 9:54 am
alanyu wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2024 5:39 pm
2. Frontal width: CX-ray 0.9 mm, Aerolite II 0.7 mm. Carbon 0.9-1.6 mm based on different models, but the thinner the worse lateral stiffness, and it can be worse than steel spoke. (T700s composite with resin has a smaller modulus than SS302)
Last itme I check, T700SC with resin had a Young modulus (stiffness) around 230GPA depending on resin % when SS is in the low 180. That is a roughtly 25% higher material stiffness and they do have more cross section, then leading to a significantly stiffer spoke (that seem to match what all spokes put on a pull bench display). Or am I missing something? to me the key in stiff CF spoked wheels and the flexible ones may be on the rim vertical stiffness and its ability to preserve the spoke tension, something the Scope, the Craft racing or Hunt do not achieve compare to the Cadex, or Lun Hyper for example
Wrong. From Toray data sheet, T700S raw fiber has a modulus of 230 Gpa, while composite with resin is only 135 Gpa. This is a close number to the factory test.

Moreover, lateral stiffness is beyond a "pull" show, it's a convolution of pulling and bending under real load. This is why an aero spoke wheel has worse lateral stiffness than a round spoke wheel even when the spoke cross section aera, and everthing else are the same, or wing 20 is laterally stiffer than cx ray even both the same weight spoke but wing 20 being less aero ratio.
You are correct... just looked the table I had in mind was with T1100 with 30% resin (228GPA)... This being said on the spokes I helped my LBS to calibrate his spoke tension tools and putting a Cadex spoke on the tensile strenght machine we had around 150N/mm for the carbon spoke and around 90 for a CX Ray.

Regarding the "pull show", I have a different reading, lateral spoke stiffness has minimam play (if you ever try to make a wheel with the blades turned 90deg there is no minor difference) but the movement at the two interfaces from the spoke moving (and not being a pure locked interface except on the bonded spokes wheels) has quite an impact.

alanyu
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Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:10 pm

by alanyu

C36 wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2024 11:21 am
alanyu wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2024 10:33 am
C36 wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2024 9:54 am
alanyu wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2024 5:39 pm
2. Frontal width: CX-ray 0.9 mm, Aerolite II 0.7 mm. Carbon 0.9-1.6 mm based on different models, but the thinner the worse lateral stiffness, and it can be worse than steel spoke. (T700s composite with resin has a smaller modulus than SS302)
Last itme I check, T700SC with resin had a Young modulus (stiffness) around 230GPA depending on resin % when SS is in the low 180. That is a roughtly 25% higher material stiffness and they do have more cross section, then leading to a significantly stiffer spoke (that seem to match what all spokes put on a pull bench display). Or am I missing something? to me the key in stiff CF spoked wheels and the flexible ones may be on the rim vertical stiffness and its ability to preserve the spoke tension, something the Scope, the Craft racing or Hunt do not achieve compare to the Cadex, or Lun Hyper for example
Wrong. From Toray data sheet, T700S raw fiber has a modulus of 230 Gpa, while composite with resin is only 135 Gpa. This is a close number to the factory test.

Moreover, lateral stiffness is beyond a "pull" show, it's a convolution of pulling and bending under real load. This is why an aero spoke wheel has worse lateral stiffness than a round spoke wheel even when the spoke cross section aera, and everthing else are the same, or wing 20 is laterally stiffer than cx ray even both the same weight spoke but wing 20 being less aero ratio.
You are correct... just looked the table I had in mind was with T1100 with 30% resin (228GPA)... This being said on the spokes I helped my LBS to calibrate his spoke tension tools and putting a Cadex spoke on the tensile strenght machine we had around 150N/mm for the carbon spoke and around 90 for a CX Ray.

Regarding the "pull show", I have a different reading, lateral spoke stiffness has minimam play (if you ever try to make a wheel with the blades turned 90deg there is no minor difference) but the movement at the two interfaces from the spoke moving (and not being a pure locked interface except on the bonded spokes wheels) has quite an impact.
150 vs 90 N/mm roughly matches the E * A of carbon spoke vs cx ray (ca. 135*5 vs 190*1.8 )

Re lateral, under real load it's different from a simple rig test. With the system weight and uneven pedalling power, the spoke tension changes quite a bit and it's neither changing evenly. In both factory test (both weight load and lateral load), and rider feedback, aero carbon spokes resultes in less lateral stiffness than round ones, with similar A.

Re the play between interface, yes it indeed quite affects the lateral stiffness.

CogInTheMachine
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Jun 04, 2024 7:09 pm

by CogInTheMachine

I have no knowledge of the materials engineering. For the record, I wasn't complaining about the stiffness. If I had to choose between a jarringly-stiff wheel and one that's a bit flexy I guess I'll give up the last percentage of cornering ability for much more comfort 99% of the time.

I am getting used to the cornering a bit. I think that I'm adjusting to the deeper wheel more than to any difference in stiffness. I've ridden wheels too flexible to corner well, and these aren't like that. I've ridden much stiffer wheels too, and they corner better until the point where they're not compliant enough to stay grounded. The Scope are in the happy middle ground. I was expecting carbon spokes to be stiffer than steel spokes and that's not my experience (the Scope are the first carbon-spoked wheels I've owned). I haven't ridden anything deeper than 50mm for a while, and even without crosswinds it just requires a bit more effort (lean, turn, counter-steer, etc.) to corner with the Scope Artech 6 than with my Bontrager RSL 51 or Roval CLX 50.

I'm also getting better at handling the depth in crosswinds, but am still finding them twitchy. I'm adjusting though, and becoming better at it. The freehub is still really annoyingly loud, even after adding grease and the time breaking it in. I will try to get a comparison posted on YouTube, but haven't done that before so am slow getting to it.

by Weenie


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CogInTheMachine
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Joined: Tue Jun 04, 2024 7:09 pm

by CogInTheMachine

Well, they're not waterproof. I got caught in a downpour today. The last 20K (mostly downhill and high speed) was on dry roads, but I still found a lot of water in the rims. There's one drain hole per rim, but they didn't spin out the water. I had to shake it out, which took a long time and was a pain. I try to avoid rain, but have been caught in downpours before and have never had to pour water out of my rims (through a tiny hole). My Bontrager RSL 51 have two holes per rim, but my Roval CLX 50 have only one, like the Scope. Neither of those has even accumulated any noticeable water in the rim. I didn't measure the water I got out of the scope, but it felt a lot heavier than the 60ml of sealant I have in there.

I completely disassembled the hubs, and there was water in the ratchet rings and on the bearing seals. I'm drying it all out now, hoping that I don't have to clean and repack the bearings (CeramicSpeed bearings are more shielded than sealed so not very waterproof in my experience). This was unsurprising to me, given the non-contact shields of the hub end caps, but again the rims filling up with water was new to me. Has anyone had a similar experience with other wheels?

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