What do you think about black inc 48/58 rims?

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SimonWang
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:09 am

by SimonWang

Regarding the new black inc wheels 48/58, I would like to hear your opinions.

I think the overall specs are pretty good, lightweight, aerodynamic, reasonably priced,

But I have never used rims produced by black inc. I would like to ask you whether 48/58 rims are a good product?

The following are the specifications of 48/58 rims


Spokes 20 Black Inc Straightpull Aero Carbon Spokes
Spoke Pattern 2x/2x
Nipples Black Inc Oversize Internal Alloy Type
Versions Shimano / XDR
Weights Shimano: 1270g (Front: 560g, Rear: 710g)
Compatibility Shimano HG 10/11 speed cassette and Sram 10/11 cassette
SRAM 12 speed cassette
Front Hub/ Rear Hub HU-08 High Flange Alloy Body WT
Hub Width Front: 100mm / Rear: 142mm
Axle Type 12mm Thru Axle
Bearings Black Inc + CeramicSpeed WT
Brake Interface Center Lock
Freehub Compatibility Shimano / SRAM XDR
ASTM Classification Level 1
Material High Modulus Carbon Fiber (T-700/ T-800/ T-1100)
Finish UD matte glossy clearcoat
Type Interface Tubeless and Clincher (inner tube)
Type Compatibility Tubeless / Tubeless Ready / Clincher
Recommended Tyre Size 700c x 28mm
Rim Height Front: 48mm / Rear: 58mm
Rim Width Internal: 23mm / External: 29mm
Rim Decals Water Transfer Decals with High Polish Glossy Clear Coat Finish
Assembly The 48|58 wheels are hand built by artisanal wheel builders and inspected with the latest electronic machines. This process guarantees that every single wheel's quality, performance and reliability.

Noctiluxx
Posts: 1359
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:17 pm
Location: Southern California

by Noctiluxx

I'll find out soon! Just ordered a Factor Ostro Vam II with the 48/58 Black Inc wheelset.
Bianchi Oltre XR4, De Rosa SK Pininfarina, Trek Madone SLR, Giant TCR Advanced SL, Cervelo R5 Disk, Giant Revolt

by Weenie


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KalleWirsch
Posts: 89
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2022 3:56 pm

by KalleWirsch

What about the rumor that these wheels are manufactured by Hyper / Lun?

UrgentDelay
Posts: 90
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2024 10:02 pm

by UrgentDelay

1. Carbon spokes - uncomfortable
2. Rim Width Internal: 23mm / External: 29mm - this will not be aero with a 28 mm tire (30.3 WAM on 23 mm internal). It will be ok with a 25 mm tire (27.1 WAM on 23 mm internal)

CampagYOLO
Posts: 810
Joined: Thu May 06, 2021 3:58 pm

by CampagYOLO

UrgentDelay wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2024 5:12 pm
1. Carbon spokes - uncomfortable
2. Rim Width Internal: 23mm / External: 29mm - this will not be aero with a 28 mm tire (30.3 WAM on 23 mm internal). It will be ok with a 25 mm tire (27.1 WAM on 23 mm internal)
ETRTO guidance states a minimum of 4mm between internal width and tyre used, so a 27mm tyre would be the smallest tyre that can safely be used on this rim.

But, an increasing number of sources are now stating that the 105% rule, something that was intorduced for tubular tyres is no longer relevent.

UrgentDelay
Posts: 90
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2024 10:02 pm

by UrgentDelay

CampagYOLO wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2024 5:25 pm
UrgentDelay wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2024 5:12 pm
1. Carbon spokes - uncomfortable
2. Rim Width Internal: 23mm / External: 29mm - this will not be aero with a 28 mm tire (30.3 WAM on 23 mm internal). It will be ok with a 25 mm tire (27.1 WAM on 23 mm internal)
ETRTO guidance states a minimum of 4mm between internal width and tyre used, so a 27mm tyre would be the smallest tyre that can safely be used on this rim.

But, an increasing number of sources are now stating that the 105% rule, something that was intorduced for tubular tyres is no longer relevent.
And the tire being tubular instead of tubeless would impact the aerodynamics how exactly? For some reason the best testing rims are wider (ENVE SES 4.5, Roval CLX, HUNT SUB50 etc.).

The 105% rule indeed has an errata though, it's sufficient if it's 100%.

hannawald
Posts: 1775
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 7:28 pm
Location: Czech Republic

by hannawald

UrgentDelay wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2024 5:43 pm
CampagYOLO wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2024 5:25 pm
UrgentDelay wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2024 5:12 pm
1. Carbon spokes - uncomfortable
2. Rim Width Internal: 23mm / External: 29mm - this will not be aero with a 28 mm tire (30.3 WAM on 23 mm internal). It will be ok with a 25 mm tire (27.1 WAM on 23 mm internal)
ETRTO guidance states a minimum of 4mm between internal width and tyre used, so a 27mm tyre would be the smallest tyre that can safely be used on this rim.

But, an increasing number of sources are now stating that the 105% rule, something that was intorduced for tubular tyres is no longer relevent.
And the tire being tubular instead of tubeless would impact the aerodynamics how exactly? For some reason the best testing rims are wider (ENVE SES 4.5, Roval CLX, HUNT SUB50 etc.).

The 105% rule indeed has an errata though, it's sufficient if it's 100%.
DT Swiss ARC 50 are less than 27mm wide but still one of the best aero with 28C tires, just slightly behind Roval Rapides CLXII, better then Enves. Partly due to the fact than the inner width of DTs doesn´t expand those tire excessively. With 30C tires it starts to loose a bit but it is not bad. We are talking 2W penalty against the bests in 45km/h (at least according to data from Hunt when they released white protocol to SUB5 wheels). Another qualities like stability, stiffness, comfort, reliability, servicibility might be more important.

CampagYOLO
Posts: 810
Joined: Thu May 06, 2021 3:58 pm

by CampagYOLO

UrgentDelay wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2024 5:43 pm
CampagYOLO wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2024 5:25 pm
UrgentDelay wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2024 5:12 pm
1. Carbon spokes - uncomfortable
2. Rim Width Internal: 23mm / External: 29mm - this will not be aero with a 28 mm tire (30.3 WAM on 23 mm internal). It will be ok with a 25 mm tire (27.1 WAM on 23 mm internal)
ETRTO guidance states a minimum of 4mm between internal width and tyre used, so a 27mm tyre would be the smallest tyre that can safely be used on this rim.

But, an increasing number of sources are now stating that the 105% rule, something that was intorduced for tubular tyres is no longer relevent.
And the tire being tubular instead of tubeless would impact the aerodynamics how exactly?
A tubular tyre has a different, more rounded profile to a tubeless one.

KalleWirsch
Posts: 89
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2022 3:56 pm

by KalleWirsch

Is the Black Inc with hooks or hookless?

UrgentDelay
Posts: 90
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2024 10:02 pm

by UrgentDelay

CampagYOLO wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2024 6:16 pm
A tubular tyre has a different, more rounded profile to a tubeless one.
Yes, hence the 5% cut from 105%. The overall aero properties between those are similar though.
hannawald wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2024 6:09 pm
DT Swiss ARC 50 are less than 27mm wide but still one of the best aero with 28C tires, just slightly behind Roval Rapides CLXII, better then Enves. Partly due to the fact than the inner width of DTs doesn´t expand those tire excessively. With 30C tires it starts to loose a bit but it is not bad. We are talking 2W penalty against the bests in 45km/h (at least according to data from Hunt when they released white protocol to SUB5 wheels). Another qualities like stability, stiffness, comfort, reliability, servicibility might be more important.
I agree, that there are other important factors except rim width, but it is one impacting performance in a significant way. Hunt tested only wheels with a wide front rim, hence the minuscule differences. Peak Torque tested wide and narrow tires on different rims and the differences were much more significant.

toxin
Posts: 928
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2023 5:56 pm

by toxin

The "rule" is that the tire should not be wider than the widest point in the rim if you don't want to absolutely wreck performance. Next step from that is that the tyre probably shouldn't be wider than the edge of the rim.

The conclusive rule is that if you actually want to know the ideal tyre for a rim you just have to test it in a wind tunnel because there are so many differring rim profiles and tyres which blow up ever so slightly differently that it is impossible to make an actual all-encompassing rule.


I haven't seen any tests with arc 50s and 28 mm measured tyres but dt swiss say they are designed for 25 mm and that's what I've always seen used.

aham23
Posts: 105
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2010 2:09 pm

by aham23

KalleWirsch wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2024 6:24 pm
Is the Black Inc with hooks or hookless?
they are calling them Mini Hooked Rims.

i dont think these wheels are shipping yet. in fact i have not seen any real folks post up about having the new VAM or these Wheels yet.

hannawald
Posts: 1775
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 7:28 pm
Location: Czech Republic

by hannawald

toxin wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2024 9:00 pm
The "rule" is that the tire should not be wider than the widest point in the rim if you don't want to absolutely wreck performance. Next step from that is that the tyre probably shouldn't be wider than the edge of the rim.

The conclusive rule is that if you actually want to know the ideal tyre for a rim you just have to test it in a wind tunnel because there are so many differring rim profiles and tyres which blow up ever so slightly differently that it is impossible to make an actual all-encompassing rule.


I haven't seen any tests with arc 50s and 28 mm measured tyres but dt swiss say they are designed for 25 mm and that's what I've always seen used.
Hunt published a white paper when they released SUB50. Tested at 45km/h.

Image

toxin
Posts: 928
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2023 5:56 pm

by toxin

Hm, I have my ideas of why that would be, but I'd need to run a few sims to be sure.

A fair bit of it is probably because they do a good job when the air hits the rim a second time when the rim becomes the leading edge and the tire the trailing edge. Could also be fairly tyre dependent as different tires will form a different shape when blown up and a good tread pattern can trip the airflow to have a better chance of attaching to the rim.

aham23
Posts: 105
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2010 2:09 pm

by aham23

I have a set of these 48/58 on order that are suppose to ship out 3/15. I have not seen any real reviews or user feedback anywhere. I will let you all know!

by Weenie


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