Hookless and updated ISO Standards - Thomas De Gendt Crash

Wheels, Tires, Tubes, Tubeless, Tubs, Spokes, Hookless, Hubs, and more!

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If a new wheel tech is released, (say for example, TPU tubes, a brand new tire, or a new rim standard), feel free to start the discussion in the popular "Road". Your topic will eventually be moved here!
mikehhhhhhh
Posts: 466
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Location: UK

by mikehhhhhhh

RDY wrote:
Sun May 05, 2024 6:22 pm
fizzaz wrote:
Sun May 05, 2024 4:24 pm
Except that isn't even remotely the same situation and you guys sound a bit clueless to what the whole thread was even about.
No, but sealant erupting out from between rim and tire bead as it did in Pogacar's case is much more likely to happen with hookless than hooked.
This is nonsense.

Whenever I put my wheels in my bike box, be it hookless 353 or hooked rapides it's always a battle between deflating them enough to get in the wells designed for 25mm tyres and not low enough to have sealant leak.

As soon as the tyre is deflected with no pressure, it leaks regardless, despite not popping off the bead.

Separately, it's interesting we're talking about the lack of failures on tubulars and the proportion of failures that are Vitoria.

Been saying it all along, Vitoria have made up the majority of failures for a while, hookless or otherwise.

JWTS
Posts: 113
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by JWTS

mikehhhhhhh wrote:
Mon May 06, 2024 3:44 pm

This is nonsense.

you really could have just left it right there...

As someone who is "pro-hooks" on race wheels, I can tell you from first-hand experience that crash would have happend on a wheel with hooks, and with a tire glued to the rim... I've had 3 identical crashes over the last 30 years, two on tubulars in a race, and one on a hooked rim (tire never left the rim but had about 5 PSI in it). Same result...

taking a 90 degree corner on a front tire without air in it is a bad idea. That's the only think to be learned here...

I think the only open question here is "would a tire liner have prevented this". I think the answer is "maybe?"

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spdntrxi
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by spdntrxi

at that speed prevented... higher is maybe. I'm not willing to find out.
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JayDee81
Posts: 423
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Location: Czech Republic

by JayDee81

RDY wrote:
Sun May 05, 2024 6:22 pm
fizzaz wrote:
Sun May 05, 2024 4:24 pm
Except that isn't even remotely the same situation and you guys sound a bit clueless to what the whole thread was even about.
No, but sealant erupting out from between rim and tire bead as it did in Pogacar's case is much more likely to happen with hookless than hooked. I've seen that happen numerous times with hookless - including right in front of me. Yet to see it with hooked. It happened because the beads (with pretty minimal force) slipped into the centre channel - which is what happens in blowoffs. So at least in my view, this is yet another terrible advert for hookless.
This is exactly what hooked/hookless is NOT about. This is about tire/rim diameter (and tolernces) together with the rim profile. Good rims have this "hook" on the inside of the rim outside the central channel exactly for this to not happen and keep the tire on the rim sides.

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JayDee81
Posts: 423
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Location: Czech Republic

by JayDee81

mikehhhhhhh wrote:
Mon May 06, 2024 3:44 pm
RDY wrote:
Sun May 05, 2024 6:22 pm
fizzaz wrote:
Sun May 05, 2024 4:24 pm
Except that isn't even remotely the same situation and you guys sound a bit clueless to what the whole thread was even about.
No, but sealant erupting out from between rim and tire bead as it did in Pogacar's case is much more likely to happen with hookless than hooked.
This is nonsense.

Whenever I put my wheels in my bike box, be it hookless 353 or hooked rapides it's always a battle between deflating them enough to get in the wells designed for 25mm tyres and not low enough to have sealant leak.

As soon as the tyre is deflected with no pressure, it leaks regardless, despite not popping off the bead.

Separately, it's interesting we're talking about the lack of failures on tubulars and the proportion of failures that are Vitoria.

Been saying it all along, Vitoria have made up the majority of failures for a while, hookless or otherwise.
This is simply completely untrue.

TobinHatesYou
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Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

JayDee81 wrote:
Tue May 07, 2024 1:06 pm

This is simply completely untrue.

There are two additional variables besides hooked/hookless. Rim dimensions and tire dimensions. Burping can certainly be a thing on a hooked rim at low pressures (or in this case completely flat.)

mikehhhhhhh
Posts: 466
Joined: Tue May 16, 2023 3:08 pm
Location: UK

by mikehhhhhhh

JayDee81 wrote:
Tue May 07, 2024 1:06 pm
mikehhhhhhh wrote:
Mon May 06, 2024 3:44 pm
RDY wrote:
Sun May 05, 2024 6:22 pm
fizzaz wrote:
Sun May 05, 2024 4:24 pm
Except that isn't even remotely the same situation and you guys sound a bit clueless to what the whole thread was even about.
No, but sealant erupting out from between rim and tire bead as it did in Pogacar's case is much more likely to happen with hookless than hooked.
This is nonsense.

Whenever I put my wheels in my bike box, be it hookless 353 or hooked rapides it's always a battle between deflating them enough to get in the wells designed for 25mm tyres and not low enough to have sealant leak.

As soon as the tyre is deflected with no pressure, it leaks regardless, despite not popping off the bead.

Separately, it's interesting we're talking about the lack of failures on tubulars and the proportion of failures that are Vitoria.

Been saying it all along, Vitoria have made up the majority of failures for a while, hookless or otherwise.
This is simply completely untrue.
I wasn't aware of anyone else being present the last time I packed my Rovals :noidea: :lol:

I'll grab a video if you like.

usr
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Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:58 pm

by usr

JayDee81 wrote:
Tue May 07, 2024 1:03 pm
Good rims have this "hook" on the inside of the rim outside the central channel exactly for this to not happen and keep the tire on the rim sides.
Better not call it a hook, that only adds to the confusion and it's really not hook-shaped at all. It's the difference between a regular rim and a tubeless compatible rim, and it's a shame that there are so few regular rims left in the market. I almost enjoy punctures on my (not 2WF) Zonda because getting the tire off and on is so easy, compared to some tubeless rims I've experienced. And yes, you absolutely wouldn't ride a regular rim deflated for longer than coming to a stand. That's really only a pro thing, where replacement bikes (or wheels) are plentiful, who try adapting to the post-tubular era.

What might have helped a little (very little!) with riding on deflated clinchers in the past ist excessive spare tire with relative to the rim, as in that light bulb shape that has been decisively abandoned not only because of aerodynamics but also because it requires excessive pressure to prevent lateral squishyness.

yinzerniner
Posts: 239
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:54 pm

by yinzerniner

usr wrote:
Tue May 07, 2024 2:38 pm
JayDee81 wrote:
Tue May 07, 2024 1:03 pm
Good rims have this "hook" on the inside of the rim outside the central channel exactly for this to not happen and keep the tire on the rim sides.
Better not call it a hook, that only adds to the confusion and it's really not hook-shaped at all.
Yeah the correct term as per Enves diagram is the "rim bead lock," aka the small ridge at the inside ended of the rim bead seat that stops the tire bead from slipping down into the rim center channel while also locking that tire bead onto the
Rim bead seat/shelf
Image

But to a previous point, I've never had tubeless sealant spill out on a deflated tire unless I unseat the tire bead from the rim bead shelf into the rim center channel. Maybe it's because I don't freshen my sealant enough so the old stuff has effectively fused/plugged any gaps, but that's just my case on over 15 different tubeless compatible rims I've used over the years

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JayDee81
Posts: 423
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Location: Czech Republic

by JayDee81

mikehhhhhhh wrote:
Tue May 07, 2024 2:20 pm
JayDee81 wrote:
Tue May 07, 2024 1:06 pm
mikehhhhhhh wrote:
Mon May 06, 2024 3:44 pm
RDY wrote:
Sun May 05, 2024 6:22 pm


No, but sealant erupting out from between rim and tire bead as it did in Pogacar's case is much more likely to happen with hookless than hooked.
This is nonsense.

Whenever I put my wheels in my bike box, be it hookless 353 or hooked rapides it's always a battle between deflating them enough to get in the wells designed for 25mm tyres and not low enough to have sealant leak.

As soon as the tyre is deflected with no pressure, it leaks regardless, despite not popping off the bead.

Separately, it's interesting we're talking about the lack of failures on tubulars and the proportion of failures that are Vitoria.

Been saying it all along, Vitoria have made up the majority of failures for a while, hookless or otherwise.
This is simply completely untrue.
I wasn't aware of anyone else being present the last time I packed my Rovals :noidea: :lol:

I'll grab a video if you like.
Might be true for your case, but at least to me it sounded like you are making this a general statement, which is just not true. Most tubeless tires when deflated (not riding) just stay on the rim and you have to force the beads to the rim central channel.

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JayDee81
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Location: Czech Republic

by JayDee81

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Tue May 07, 2024 2:10 pm
JayDee81 wrote:
Tue May 07, 2024 1:06 pm

This is simply completely untrue.

There are two additional variables besides hooked/hookless. Rim dimensions and tire dimensions. Burping can certainly be a thing on a hooked rim at low pressures (or in this case completely flat.)
You are right about rim and tire dimensions. That applies regardless of them being hooked/hookless though. And burping is certainly a thing even on tubeless rims and tires given the pressure is low enough, certainly in mtbs. The OP was talking about a workshop situation though and a tubeless tire should definitely stay seated on a tubeless rim after deflating in a workshop!

mikehhhhhhh
Posts: 466
Joined: Tue May 16, 2023 3:08 pm
Location: UK

by mikehhhhhhh

JayDee81 wrote:
Thu May 09, 2024 9:05 am
mikehhhhhhh wrote:
Tue May 07, 2024 2:20 pm
JayDee81 wrote:
Tue May 07, 2024 1:06 pm
mikehhhhhhh wrote:
Mon May 06, 2024 3:44 pm


This is nonsense.

Whenever I put my wheels in my bike box, be it hookless 353 or hooked rapides it's always a battle between deflating them enough to get in the wells designed for 25mm tyres and not low enough to have sealant leak.

As soon as the tyre is deflected with no pressure, it leaks regardless, despite not popping off the bead.

Separately, it's interesting we're talking about the lack of failures on tubulars and the proportion of failures that are Vitoria.

Been saying it all along, Vitoria have made up the majority of failures for a while, hookless or otherwise.
This is simply completely untrue.
I wasn't aware of anyone else being present the last time I packed my Rovals :noidea: :lol:

I'll grab a video if you like.
Might be true for your case, but at least to me it sounded like you are making this a general statement, which is just not true. Most tubeless tires when deflated (not riding) just stay on the rim and you have to force the beads to the rim central channel.
I haven't said that the tyres come off the bead to be fair.

I said tubeless sealant leaks when there's no pressure and the tyre is deformed, but bead remains seated.

CampagYOLO
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by CampagYOLO

I've had many sets of wheels over the years with tubeless tyres fitted, all hooked. This spans road, gravel and MTB.

None of them have ever leaked sealant when deflated in the workshop.

Every single time they've remained seated and I'd need to unseat them before any sealant will come out.

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

I had a puncture on my GP5K TT TRs on Wednesday, so I added some more Orange Seal after the ride. Little dots of sealant only started to appear on the outside of the bead when I reinflated the tire. I'm assuming there's a tiny bit of sealant migration as the bead/casing tension drops, and then it gets pushed out where there are tiny sprues or other mold patterns on the bead when I pump up the tire again.

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JayDee81
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by JayDee81

I'd say it can leak if the rim/tire bead is not clean or out of dimensions. If the dimensions are correct it should definitely not leak. Never happened to me either with several different rims and tires. That is unless the rim was damaged (alloy rim) or it wasn't clean and in these cases it would also leak air until the sealants sealed the hole. Afterwards even when deflated it would seal and there would be no leaking.

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