Hookless and updated ISO Standards - Thomas De Gendt Crash

Wheels, Tires, Tubes, Tubeless, Tubs, Spokes, Hookless, Hubs, and more!

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TobinHatesYou
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Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

It’s also worth pointing out that a tire with completely dried out sealant that has been allowed to full deflate does tend to have have sealing issues when reinflated.

by Weenie


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garbageman
Posts: 250
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:08 am

by garbageman

I've had sealant seep out from the bead when deflating a tire before. I think it was a GP5K S TR on Light Bicycle AR rims (no holes/no tape). I may have had it happen with Corsa Pros on Farsports rims (also without tape) as well, can't remember. Tires remain seated. It's strange that someone would deny it's possible just because they haven't seen it happen. Given the loose fit standards/dimensional accuracy of (some) TLR tires and how much foldable beads stretch with use, I don't find it surprising at all.
Last edited by garbageman on Fri May 10, 2024 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

AJS914
Posts: 5497
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

What is up with the pros running so little sealant? It's like they don't know that the more top up / drying cycles you go through, the more impervious your tire is to flats. And the dried up sealant inside weighs like 5 grams.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 13009
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

AJS914 wrote:
Fri May 10, 2024 9:50 pm
What is up with the pros running so little sealant? It's like they don't know that the more top up / drying cycles you go through, the more impervious your tire is to flats. And the dried up sealant inside weighs like 5 grams.

50mL of Orange Seal dried up = ~9g
50mL of some other sealants = ~20g

But that’s neither here nor there. Why run tubeless without one of its major benefits. That Visma rider’s tire probably would have sealed with more than the absolute minimum amount of sealant…and a better sealant than whatever they’re using.

AJS914
Posts: 5497
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

I weighed like a full year of sealant top ups and it was like nothing. Like 10x60ml top ups - definitely not 100grams dried up. But like you said, that it besides the point. It was hardly any weight.

I guess a service course, managing 200 pairs of wheels doesn't want to put 20ml in a wheel and then have someone go spin it every day, and then top it up again in a week, and then repeat. Maybe too much work. But once you have several drying cycles under your belt, these tires are practically flat proof.

I also scrub the inside of my tires when new so that sealant can stick to them better. GP5000s seem to come with a slick oily/silicone film on them.

I remember a few years ago when EF was painting sealant on the inside of tire before installation so they could try and get away with some tiny bit of sealant. They couldn't possibly continued that practice.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 13009
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

AJS914 wrote:
Fri May 10, 2024 11:20 pm
I weighed like a full year of sealant top ups and it was like nothing. Like 10x60ml top ups - definitely not 100grams dried up. But like you said, that it besides the point. It was hardly any weight.

I literally put 50g of two dozen sealants in cups and let them all evaporate, then weighed them. I can assure you that 600g of liquid Orange Seal would end up 100-110g. With Silca Ultimate, it would be like 250g.

Also whaaat, 10x60mL top ups in a single wheelset???

AJS914
Posts: 5497
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

Yeah, like once a month for a year minus the winter. It did not weigh 100 grams. I never had a squirting flat out on the road either. I'll weigh my next one when I change tires.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 13009
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

AJS914 wrote:
Fri May 10, 2024 11:58 pm
Yeah, like once a month for a year minus the winter. It did not weigh 100 grams. I never had a squirting flat out on the road either. I'll weigh my next one when I change tires.

30mL per tire per month?? Something doesn’t add up. Are you using something that gets really frothy when shaken up and pouring in less than you think?

AJS914
Posts: 5497
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

Using Orange Seal. You don't shake it? Aren't all the bits at the bottom if you don't shake it?

Usually I shake my tire/rim next to ear and if I don't hear any sloshing, I'll top up.

Whatever I'm doing, it's working. I haven't had a flat in 6 years now. I used to typically get 2-3 pinhole flats per year.

pushpush
Posts: 365
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:10 am

by pushpush

Typically, I suck all the remaining sealant out of the tire before adding more fresh sealant. My thinking is that most of the suspended solids will have already settled out and bonded over time. The aqueous solution remaining is likely lower in TDS than fresh sealant, so rather than just topping up, I replace. This could be totally wrong but it seems reasonable to me.

This practice doesn't work with Fillmore valves which are so annoying.

Jaisen
Posts: 657
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2022 2:01 am

by Jaisen

AJS914 wrote:
Sat May 11, 2024 4:11 pm
Using Orange Seal. You don't shake it? Aren't all the bits at the bottom if you don't shake it?

Usually I shake my tire/rim next to ear and if I don't hear any sloshing, I'll top up.

Whatever I'm doing, it's working. I haven't had a flat in 6 years now. I used to typically get 2-3 pinhole flats per year.
The bottle says shake well before use in big bold lettering. It also says to use between 30-60ml for 700c tires. Orange seal also says the average sealant life is 30-45 days, so depending on your environment you've been using it fine. I never had it dry up that fast and I only typically top up with 30ml each time, but my environment might be very different to yours. I've only used it for a year now, no flats. Hopefully I see the same results as you.

AJS914
Posts: 5497
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

It sounds like I'm using it exactly as intended. I'm willing to go overboard on sealant because a little more can't hurt and I could care less about the weight. When a tires is new I go for 90ml. I do 60ml for top ups and that is a shaken bottle of Orange Seal - yes it is bubbly and a little foamy though I'm sucking it up from the bottom of the bottle.

>>>I suck all the remaining sealant out of the tire before adding more fresh sealant

At this point I'm not willing to do any extra messy work. I just keep topping up and topping up. My sealant seem to dry out because with the shake/listen test I can hear hardly any liquid sloshing after a month.

Back to my original point, I feel like the more top up / drying cycles you go through the more flat proof the sealant becomes. At the end of the tires life I have a nice coating of latex under my tread. The Pros are always using new tires and for performance reasons trying to save weight with a drop of sealant. They seem to missing out on a lot of the benefits.

warthog101
Posts: 970
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:05 am

by warthog101

pushpush wrote:
Sat May 11, 2024 4:37 pm
Typically, I suck all the remaining sealant out of the tire before adding more fresh sealant. My thinking is that most of the suspended solids will have already settled out and bonded over time. The aqueous solution remaining is likely lower in TDS than fresh sealant, so rather than just topping up, I replace. This could be totally wrong but it seems reasonable to me.

This practice doesn't work with Fillmore valves which are so annoying.
They are great valves but yep not for adding sealant. I wont be getting anymore.
Standard presta valves and just buy replacements for when they get clogged, from ebay or wherever.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 13009
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

AJS914 wrote:
Sat May 11, 2024 4:11 pm
Using Orange Seal. You don't shake it? Aren't all the bits at the bottom if you don't shake it?

Usually I shake my tire/rim next to ear and if I don't hear any sloshing, I'll top up.

Whatever I'm doing, it's working. I haven't had a flat in 6 years now. I used to typically get 2-3 pinhole flats per year.

No you aren't understanding what I'm saying. Of course I shake up my Orange Seal, but in order to 40mL of actual sealant into my tire, I weigh 40g worth. If you try to pour 40mL of well shaken Orange Seal into a syringe, you will probably only end up with 25mL of sealant and 15mL of air bubbles.

Initially using 90mL of Orange Seal a typical road tire + 60mL top ups every month is absolutely bonkers.

by Weenie


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AJS914
Posts: 5497
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

Bonkers? Give me a break. I haven't gotten a fraking flat in 6 years!

I'm topping up with 60ml shaken in the bottle so by your estimates, I'm getting it just right.

Life is too short to weigh out sealant when I can just suck it up with a syringe, shoot it in and be done with it.

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