Hookless and updated ISO Standards - Thomas De Gendt Crash

[bobones]

Go listen to Josh Poertner (ex Zipp), JP Ballard (Swiss Side), Xav Disley (Aerocoach). Experts who are testing just about every mainstream wheel/tyre combination in wind tunnels and elsewhere. These guys are reporting seeing random blowoffs on wheels just sitting around with tyres that are inflated well within standards and they're all negative on road hookless. OK, some of these guys have a stake in the game, but Josh Poertner no longer makes wheels, and he says he's only comfortable with hookless when tyres are 32 mm or more. Have you seen Hambini's YT video on Zipp hookless? It doesn't paint a pretty picture.

[warthog101]

This article may be of interest to some.
https://www.cyclingnews.com/features/ho ... -opinions/

[mikehhhhhhh]

Go listen to Josh Poertner (ex Zipp), JP Ballard (Swiss Side), Xav Disley (Aerocoach). Experts who are testing just about every mainstream wheel/tyre combination in wind tunnels and elsewhere. These guys are reporting seeing random blowoffs on wheels just sitting around with tyres that are inflated well within standards and they're all negative on road hookless. OK, some of these guys have a stake in the game, but Josh Poertner no longer makes wheels, and he says he's only comfortable with hookless when tyres are 32 mm or more. Have you seen Hambini's YT video on Zipp hookless? It doesn't paint a pretty picture.

I don't doubt these guys have seen some blow-offs. We've seen there are some brands out there making out of spec rims and tyres, but annecdotes aren't evidence. There are annecdotes of hooked tyres blowing off rims as well.

This is kinda my point, if someone was to be truly objective, you'd need to look at evidence and failure rates as a percentage across all rim designs. For all we know, 1% of Brand XYZ hooked wheels have blow-off issues, but we don't see it because that 1% is 3 people with zero public exposure yet we could all be screaming at Zipp/Hookless because 0.1% have experienced failures, some in public. That's before you consider all the variables introduced by fitment, use, damage, etc.

Of course, these numbers don't really exist in the public domain, so it's all speculation but I think that speculation is heavily driven by confirmation bias of hookless just doesn't seem like a good idea.

TL;DR is jumping to an un/lesser proven wheel could be jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire, relatively speaking.

[fatpinarellorider]

Got my first hookless wheels built up. They have 28mm tyres fitted (and the tyres were made before all of this tubless stuff came along).
This is not for a road bike, more of a hybrid training bike. But seeing as 28mm is considered road these days... it more or less is like a road setup...

Installed my own home made rim tape and set them up with tubes.
Man I was nervous pumping them up. Fully expecting one of them to blow up right in my face.

I probably would not have bothered if I had seen all these blowoffs beforehand.

[Hexsense]

When I check my Light-Bicycle (Falcon Pro) rims against my friends Roval, Enve and Zipp. I don't notice build quality difference. I ,however, notice difference between my Light-Bicycle against real cheap carbon wheels from Amazon.

I've seen as many hooked tyre dismounts in the pro peloton as hookless. There were two in one race last year.

I've also not seen any evidence of random blow-offs besides the case on youtube where the rim was way out of spec.

I had witnessed three sudden tire deflation on what you call cheap Chinese wheels.

One is rim tape failure. Another is big tire sidewall slash which does not seal. Last one is a guy on tire that fit really loose of the rim on rim that is a bit undersized without rim tape and tire that is oversized.
In all cases, the deflation is sudden yet the tire remain on the rim and riders stop just fine without crashing.

Another anacdote: There is a really rough course with pot hole locally. All rims survive throughout the years of riding on them. That include some random bottom out and pinch flat the Tubed tires. Except one Roval. Yeah, none of what you call cheap Chinese broke there. One Roval 50 (the one shipped with Specialized Venge, not the new CLX) didn't. It crack.

[Mr.Gib]

Go listen to Josh Poertner (ex Zipp), JP Ballard (Swiss Side), Xav Disley (Aerocoach). Experts who are testing just about every mainstream wheel/tyre combination in wind tunnels and elsewhere. These guys are reporting seeing random blowoffs on wheels just sitting around with tyres that are inflated well within standards and they're all negative on road hookless...

I don't doubt these guys have seen some blow-offs. We've seen there are some brands out there making out of spec rims and tyres, but annecdotes aren't evidence. There are annecdotes of hooked tyres blowing off rims as well.

This is kinda my point, if someone was to be truly objective, you'd need to look at evidence and failure rates as a percentage across all rim designs.

Yes, proper data would be useful. The only data set I have heard of was Poertner's casual calculation, referenced early in this thread, on the sets he had tested that showed blow-offs in aproximately 4 percent, which seems to be a very high number. If it is remotely accurate that is scary.

[usr]

This is kinda my point, if someone was to be truly objective, you'd need to look at evidence and failure rates as a percentage across all rim designs. For all we know, 1% of Brand XYZ hooked wheels have blow-off issues, but we don't see it because that 1% is 3 people with zero public exposure yet we could all be screaming at Zipp/Hookless because 0.1% have experienced failures, some in public. That's before you consider all the variables introduced by fitment, use, damage, etc.

If hookless means that we can only ever buy wheels from a small set of market dominating companies, then that alone should be considered reason enough to never but hookless. I don't want to be customer in a market like that. And we still don't really have any customer facing benefit of hookless.

[BdaGhisallo]

Jonas Rutsch in Sunday's Ghent-Wevelgem. His Vittoria Air Liners are doing their job... right?

[spdntrxi]

Curious as to what you think the airliner main job is ?

because this tire looks to severely damaged

[BdaGhisallo]

Curious as to what you think the airliner main job is ?

because this tire looks to severely damaged

I thought it was intended to give the tire some shape so that it stays on the rim. This tire still looks to be on the rim, but I cannot imagine it would stay there for long with the liner outside of it.

[JWTS]

Basically nothing, it looses all the advantages hooked wheels have. There is an argument that the wheels are cheaper to manufacture but I still don't see them getting considerably cheaper than hooked, and it locks you into running only specific TL hookless approved tyres which are - more expensive.

25 pages of discussion basically boils down to people not wanting to risk hookles vs hookless wheel owners that are trying to justify it

Well, as someone who "has an axe to grind against hookless", or so I've learned from the internet...I do think there are advantages besides cost: they can be more impact resistant. The cantilevered section of the hook is the most susceptible part of the wheel to impact (I've personally broken 3 hooked carbon wheels at that exact spot, different manufacturers).The carbon fibers themselves have less of a radius in production, so they're inherently stronger. So for me, for a set of go-fast training wheels, they're perfect since I ride on crappy roads and some occassional light gravel on my road bike. I've hit stuff with a cheap set of Token Roubaix wheels that I'm sure would have broken a hooked carbon wheel and they're fine.

But... I'm riding a 32mm tire on a 25mm internal rim, at a max of 55 psi, normally lower. I'm completely confident in this combo.

For racing though, there are two issues:

-the tire width required for safety w/hookless is likely going to be suboptimal
-tire pressure is likely going to be suboptimal as well for a lot of riders. Silca's tire pressure calculator seems to be among the most accurate (based on my own testing and the testing of some others who've invested way more time than I have on this subject).

So, for a set of race wheels, you have the option to run a suboptimal set up, or push the bounds of what's safe (such as a 28mm tire at 80 psi).

Horses for courses and all that, I prefer the added impact of hookless for my everyday wheels. I just make sure to use an appropriate tire and tire pressure.

[spdntrxi]

Curious as to what you think the airliner main job is ?

because this tire looks to severely damaged

I thought it was intended to give the tire some shape so that it stays on the rim. This tire still looks to be on the rim, but I cannot imagine it would stay there for long with the liner outside of it.

that that was the job of the hook cuz these are hooked

and Vittoria again..

[JWTS]

and Vittoria again..

In my experience, their tires seem to fit a little looser than some..

but.....

from the looks of that wheel, I'd say it's impressive that it's still rolling forward.

[usr]

but.....

from the looks of that wheel, I'd say it's impressive that it's still rolling forward.

Now I see it, second picture, at the n of "Vision". Ouch. I guess I'll just stick to riding a robust pressure, impedance induced rolling resistances be dammed.

[toxin]

As is unfortunately common practice in pros, they will go as far as they physically can before stopping for a change, safety be damned.