Princeton Wake 6560 Evolution vs Zipp NSW454 vs ENVE 4.5

[Noctiluxx]

What about the new hooked Black Inc 58/48 wheelset that come in at 1270 grams with carbon spokes? The specs on paper look amazing.

[mikehhhhhhh]

What about the new hooked Black Inc 58/48 wheelset that come in at 1270 grams with carbon spokes? The specs on paper look amazing.

These "cheap" ultra-low weight deep wheels make me nervous, almost too good to be true. Which makes me wonder where/how the weight saving has been made and whether that's at the expense of a level of safety.

and as a user of Hookless 353nsws, that's saying something

[Noctiluxx]

What about the new hooked Black Inc 58/48 wheelset that come in at 1270 grams with carbon spokes? The specs on paper look amazing.

These "cheap" ultra-low weight deep wheels make me nervous, almost too good to be true. Which makes me wonder where/how the weight saving has been made and whether that's at the expense of a level of safety.

and as a user of Hookless 353nsws, that's saying something

"Cheap" based on personal experience? I've had many personal issues with Zipp quality in the past with crappy hubs, spoke issues, and of course going all in on hookless.

[mikehhhhhhh]

What about the new hooked Black Inc 58/48 wheelset that come in at 1270 grams with carbon spokes? The specs on paper look amazing.

These "cheap" ultra-low weight deep wheels make me nervous, almost too good to be true. Which makes me wonder where/how the weight saving has been made and whether that's at the expense of a level of safety.

and as a user of Hookless 353nsws, that's saying something

"Cheap" based on personal experience? I've had many personal issues with Zipp quality in the past with crappy hubs, spoke issues, and of course going all in on hookless.

"Cheap" based on the price. It's the same price as other more premium wheels that weigh 200-400g more.

[Wildh]

What about the new hooked Black Inc 58/48 wheelset that come in at 1270 grams with carbon spokes? The specs on paper look amazing.

These "cheap" ultra-low weight deep wheels make me nervous, almost too good to be true. Which makes me wonder where/how the weight saving has been made and whether that's at the expense of a level of safety.

and as a user of Hookless 353nsws, that's saying something

I've not seen the Black inc, but there are at least 5-10 companies out there making wheels with carbon spokes in or around this weight spec. Most of which are under $1500. The weight reduction is pretty easy to figure out. It's spoke material and count. Rims are not significantly different.

I'd put money on zipp, enve, etc jumping on the band wagon at some point. Cadex recently did.

[mikehhhhhhh]

What about the new hooked Black Inc 58/48 wheelset that come in at 1270 grams with carbon spokes? The specs on paper look amazing.

These "cheap" ultra-low weight deep wheels make me nervous, almost too good to be true. Which makes me wonder where/how the weight saving has been made and whether that's at the expense of a level of safety.

and as a user of Hookless 353nsws, that's saying something

I've not seen the Black inc, but there are at least 5-10 companies out there making wheels with carbon spokes in or around this weight spec. Most of which are under $1500. The weight reduction is pretty easy to figure out. It's spoke material and count. Rims are not significantly different.

I'd put money on zipp, enve, etc jumping on the band wagon at some point. Cadex recently did.

Don't tease me, where can I find 1270g 50/60 hooked wheels for less than $1500?

[eins4eins]

Farsports.

[Wildh]

What about the new hooked Black Inc 58/48 wheelset that come in at 1270 grams with carbon spokes? The specs on paper look amazing.

These "cheap" ultra-low weight deep wheels make me nervous, almost too good to be true. Which makes me wonder where/how the weight saving has been made and whether that's at the expense of a level of safety.

and as a user of Hookless 353nsws, that's saying something

I've not seen the Black inc, but there are at least 5-10 companies out there making wheels with carbon spokes in or around this weight spec. Most of which are under $1500. The weight reduction is pretty easy to figure out. It's spoke material and count. Rims are not significantly different.

I'd put money on zipp, enve, etc jumping on the band wagon at some point. Cadex recently did.

Don't tease me, where can I find 1270g 50/60 hooked wheels for less than $1500?

Winspace, Farsports, Scribe, Elite, Superteam, I can, etc all have a similar build to the black inc. All hooked. Honestly, you could probably say black inc and cadex are late and have for the most part just copied Winspaces wheel.

If you want a pair for even less, check ACE Sprint on AliExpress. $800-900 and you can customize logos if you wish. Personally I have this wheelset on my Tri bike and it's damn impressive. 60mm front 75 rear weighing 1370 gr. I've built a lot of custom wheels and these are right up there with some high end builds I've done.

I'm not trying to pimp any product. Just saying there are some really good options out there. There's a argument to be made to keep your purchases to domestic companies, but 98% of them are purchasing the raw parts from China or Taiwan. I think HED might be one of the few that do some carbon variants in the states. But even there I would bet the spokes and hubs are from Taiwan or China. Hard to get around that in this industry.

[mikehhhhhhh]

These "cheap" ultra-low weight deep wheels make me nervous, almost too good to be true. Which makes me wonder where/how the weight saving has been made and whether that's at the expense of a level of safety.

and as a user of Hookless 353nsws, that's saying something

I've not seen the Black inc, but there are at least 5-10 companies out there making wheels with carbon spokes in or around this weight spec. Most of which are under $1500. The weight reduction is pretty easy to figure out. It's spoke material and count. Rims are not significantly different.

I'd put money on zipp, enve, etc jumping on the band wagon at some point. Cadex recently did.

Don't tease me, where can I find 1270g 50/60 hooked wheels for less than $1500?

Winspace, Farsports, Scribe, Elite, Superteam, I can, etc all have a similar build to the black inc. All hooked. Honestly, you could probably say black inc and cadex are late and have for the most part just copied Winspaces wheel.

If you want a pair for even less, check ACE Sprint on AliExpress. $800-900 and you can customize logos if you wish. Personally I have this wheelset on my Tri bike and it's damn impressive. 60mm front 75 rear weighing 1370 gr. I've built a lot of custom wheels and these are right up there with some high end builds I've done.

I'm not trying to pimp any product. Just saying there are some really good options out there. There's a argument to be made to keep your purchases to domestic companies, but 98% of them are purchasing the raw parts from China or Taiwan. I think HED might be one of the few that do some carbon variants in the states. But even there I would bet the spokes and hubs are from Taiwan or China. Hard to get around that in this industry.

Winspace Lun Hyper 46/54s @ 1421g - $1300
Winspace Lun Mega 46/54 @ 1375g - $2300
Farsports Evo 55mm @ 1370g - $1899
Scribe Elan 50-D @ 1437g - £1190
Elite Drive 50D @ 1300g or 65D @ 1460g - $1,189

Only one of these even get close to 1270g and that's for 50/50 not 50/60, and they're all budget direct chinese brands.

If you look to established brands, what is there to compare? Syncros Capital SL for 4000 eur?

[garbageman]

https://wheelsfar.com/carbon-spokes-to- ... p0182.html
a 50f/58r set should be about 1250g
still baffled someone would call a $2800 wheelset "cheap"

[Wildh]

Yes you are correct that many of these are direct to consumer. Most from China. Scribe is UK based i believe, but essentially just a rebranded china direct.

Again...I think pretty much 98% of established brands are buying stuff from China/Taiwan. There is just a profit margin built in on top.

By no means am I trying to say one is superior to the other so hope it isn't coming off as me pushing anything. Simply pointing out there are options that are out there and depends on what someone is wanting and willing to pay for. I've had/have high end Vision, Reynolds, DT, Bontrager, Enve, etc. I found that they were fine, but not better than me building my own. I'm very value driven and the massive price premium for Zipp, Enve, Princeton, etc just isn't there for me personally. But that's me and everyone's value equation is different.

The synchros wheels are pretty sweet. Same with the Cadex. But that one piece spoke design for each has it's drawbacks. In particular if you break one spoke you're replacing the entire side or entire wheel. Get's really expensive. Given the fatigue life of carbon it's not likely a spoke breaks for something other than an impact, so this isn't a big concern outside of getting something in a spinning wheel, but is con of the completely intergrated designs. The Black Inc wheels honestly look VERY much like china direct carbon spoke options. The weight is likely achieved in extra hub machining. You can see there is a lot on the hub flanges removed. Holes in the free hub body as well. That's likely main difference. They mention a 'micro hook' design which also likely makes up for 20-30 gr if they are essentially using a thinner wall. I'd be a bit leery with a super thin side wall/hook. Might be fragile and put some risk into tire mounting/removal and/or a flat.

[Wildh]

https://wheelsfar.com/carbon-spokes-to- ... p0182.html
a 50f/58r set should be about 1250g
still baffled someone would call a $2800 wheelset "cheap"

I agree with you personally.

[APPROVED]

I've not seen the Black inc, but there are at least 5-10 companies out there making wheels with carbon spokes in or around this weight spec. Most of which are under $1500. The weight reduction is pretty easy to figure out. It's spoke material and count. Rims are not significantly different.

I'd put money on zipp, enve, etc jumping on the band wagon at some point. Cadex recently did.

Don't tease me, where can I find 1270g 50/60 hooked wheels for less than $1500?

Winspace, Farsports, Scribe, Elite, Superteam, I can, etc all have a similar build to the black inc. All hooked. Honestly, you could probably say black inc and cadex are late and have for the most part just copied Winspaces wheel.

If you want a pair for even less, check ACE Sprint on AliExpress. $800-900 and you can customize logos if you wish. Personally I have this wheelset on my Tri bike and it's damn impressive. 60mm front 75 rear weighing 1370 gr. I've built a lot of custom wheels and these are right up there with some high end builds I've done.

I'm not trying to pimp any product. Just saying there are some really good options out there. There's a argument to be made to keep your purchases to domestic companies, but 98% of them are purchasing the raw parts from China or Taiwan. I think HED might be one of the few that do some carbon variants in the states. But even there I would bet the spokes and hubs are from Taiwan or China. Hard to get around that in this industry.

Winspace Lun Hyper 46/54s @ 1421g - $1300
Winspace Lun Mega 46/54 @ 1375g - $2300
Farsports Evo 55mm @ 1370g - $1899
Scribe Elan 50-D @ 1437g - £1190
Elite Drive 50D @ 1300g or 65D @ 1460g - $1,189

Only one of these even get close to 1270g and that's for 50/50 not 50/60, and they're all budget direct chinese brands.

If you look to established brands, what is there to compare? Syncros Capital SL for 4000 eur?

I would like to talk regarding the comparison between the Elite Drive 50D and PCW Wakes with Tactic TR01. I rode with Strads and Corsas and curentlly I have ordered the new Peaks EVO. Untill I get them I am riding Elite Drive 50D wheels. I weight around 88-90kg. Where I feel the PCW Wakes excel comapred to Elite Drive are at the accelerations and windy sections. Wakes feel sturdier. The difference is not huge but every cyclist should feel the difference. Now compared to the wheels I rode at around 1300$ I think the Elite Drives are one of the best options out there but they are not where the Wakes are...

[Wildh]

PCW are a very good looking wheelset both cosmetically as well as in design. Their testing data is impressive, but I almost want to see 3rd party verification because it's so wildly better it's almost questionable.

I think part of the stiffness feeling you notice can be explained by spoke count and tension. Elite look to be using 21 front vs PCW at 24. Spoke count and tension make a pretty noticeable difference in ride feel in my experience. Maybe tension more so even than count.

[DogmaHiFi]

Hey everyone,

I'm thrilled to share my recent upgrade experience from Zipp 303 Firecrest to Wakes 6560 Evolution wheels, paired with Tactic TR01 hubs. I placed my order before Christmas 2023 and, boy, was the lead time long! In the interim, I devoured every thread, forum post, and review about both the previous 6560 models and the latest Evolution edition.

Initially, I was buzzing with excitement after placing the order, but as I encountered various negative posts and reviews about the 6560s, I admit my feelings became mixed. For context, while I'm not a professional cyclist, I'm seriously invested in enhancing my performance, speed, and times.

After a lengthy wait, exacerbated by the production of Tactic TR01 hubs in Germany and their anodization in the USA, my 6560s finally arrived. The quality was apparent straight out of the box. When I took them for a spin the next day on my familiar segments , all my initial enthusiasm came flooding back. Compared to my Firecrests, every aspect of my ride was elevated – the ride feel, the sound, the assuredness during descents and while cornering. They are also in total 70 grams lighter

Speed-wise, I noticed significant improvements – faster ascents, way quicker descents, and superb handling in windy conditions. And while I prefer to focus on performance over aesthetics, it's undeniable that these wheels have also enhanced the look of my Dogma F.