Bora 45 WTO vs Firecrest 303 vs Dura Ace C50 vs Zipp 353 NSW

[jlok]

lovely. wonder what the weights will be

Assuming each spoke and nipple are 6g, then it's 36g less than last gen for the Ultras. However, we are unsure how much more heavier for wider rims. Could be virtually the same weight as the so-called old-fashioned 19mm wheels. I picked the 60 Ultra up once and didn't feel particularly ligher or heavier. But damn... quality is top. The carbon fibre hub shell and natual glossy rim surface are very attractive.

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yeah they are beutiful hoops for sure. thanks for the info fella

[xiyuwang]

If you want comfort, 303 seems to be the best. Very wide, light weight, and reasonably priced. 353 shares the same internel width, but for the hub and spoke you are getting, 353 is way too expensive IMHO. (Zipp's hub always have this and that problem, ZR-1 slips sometimes slips and quite draggy, congnition hub being hardly water proof and requires a lot of careful maintainence. You can go for enve, if you can find stock, I'd be happy with DT hubs, CK hubs are too expensive and requires complicated maintainence, which is a downside IMO. Still, both Enve and Zipp are hookless, you should be prepared with pump with air tanks and some backup tubeless tires which is not a cheap investment if you are frequently having punctures that cannot be sealed by sealant.

Bora... as long as campy is using G3 spoke pattern, I am not going to consider it a valid choice. G3 is so sub-optimal for disc brake wheels, I don't know why campy is still using it, sheer dumb. I heard campy made new Boras 23mm internel, still, I don't fancy the G3 pattern for disc brake wheels. Plus, campy has some history that 45mm rims are prone to rim crack due to high tension on the rim because of G3 spoke pattern. They should have addressed this issue, but as long as they are still using G3, you know... You can consider hyperon ultra for sure, but bro it is damn expensive.

Shimano is an okay choice, but nothing fancy. Plus you need to go to shops to do maintainence although the maintainence interval for Shimano is quite long, it won't be too annoying, once a year is quite enough. You can learn to do it at home, but there might be user errors that leads to damages... be careful.

DT ERC, as you discussed, is reasonable, but not that wide. 23mm internel width is Okay, DT 180 hubs are great hubs. If you don't mind weight, the 1400 version uses DT240 hub, which is actually physically stronger... plus steel bearings are easier to service and might achieve even better lifespan.

I personally use DT ARC 1100 (50mm+62mm) and zipp 404 fc. ARC is setup as 25c+28c, 404 has 28c+30c. I'd say DT's claim about the optimal width is quite right, 25c fits the front wheel. And 28c is great for 404's rim dimensions. I don't quite appreciate DT180 hub, however, the ceramic bearings introduces minimal performance gains, and it is much much more expensive to replace, if required.

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Hey. Cheers for the reply. Yes I had a set of 404 firecrests a few years back. More interested in the 303 as all rounders though. 58mm is too deep on the front for my purposes. I think I'll go 303FC or something with DT Swiss hubs when the time comes

[jlok]

Bora... as long as campy is using G3 spoke pattern, I am not going to consider it a valid choice. G3 is so sub-optimal for disc brake wheels, I don't know why campy is still using it, sheer dumb. I heard campy made new Boras 23mm internel, still, I don't fancy the G3 pattern for disc brake wheels. Plus, campy has some history that 45mm rims are prone to rim crack due to high tension on the rim because of G3 spoke pattern. They should have addressed this issue, but as long as they are still using G3, you know... You can consider hyperon ultra for sure, but bro it is damn expensive.

Not the first time hearing that. Would love to learn the weakness of G3 on disc brake (I guess it's the rear wheel?). Care to explain in detail?

[xiyuwang]

Bora... as long as campy is using G3 spoke pattern, I am not going to consider it a valid choice. G3 is so sub-optimal for disc brake wheels, I don't know why campy is still using it, sheer dumb. I heard campy made new Boras 23mm internel, still, I don't fancy the G3 pattern for disc brake wheels. Plus, campy has some history that 45mm rims are prone to rim crack due to high tension on the rim because of G3 spoke pattern. They should have addressed this issue, but as long as they are still using G3, you know... You can consider hyperon ultra for sure, but bro it is damn expensive.

Not the first time hearing that. Would love to learn the weakness of G3 on disc brake (I guess it's the rear wheel?). Care to explain in detail?

G3 pattern is not inter-laced and this sucks for disc brake wheels because non interlaced pattern is naturally sub-optimal for disc brake (not good at taking torque). G3 is an uneven pattern that would have more spoke on the drive side and rotor side (depends, and I don't understand how they justify the case of read wheel because you have rotor side and drive side at the same time putting a lot of torque on the hub and rim). You can also read about this via many YT videos, and you will understand why radial lacing can't take as much torque as 2 cross or 3 cross. (not saying it is un-usable, but sub-optimal at the bery beginning. To make it work, campy use oversized flange, high spoke tension, and probably enhenced the rim... so they can optimize something that is naturally inferior to compete with other brands).

Besides, G3 leaves more part of the rim unsuported. This requires higher rim strength to make sure the rim won't crack due to high tension... And, it is more likely to have rim crackes, particularly for shallower rim profile Boras, such as 45mm.

G3 pattern is great for rim brake wheels, but not disc brake wheels. You can see they don't use it on Hyperon Ultra, I think it is partially because shallow rims will really struggle to hold without cracking.

[mikehhhhhhh]

353 is way too expensive IMHO. (Zipp's hub always have this and that problem, ZR-1 slips sometimes slips and quite draggy, congnition hub being hardly water proof and requires a lot of careful maintainence.

I'm intrigued by the slipping and careful maintenance you mention. Can you elaborate on this?

[gorkypl]

I have zero issues with the wto 45db. There surely are many theories and YouTube videos, but in practice these are probably the most maintenance free wheels I have, not mentioning how easy is to service the cup and cone bearings. I also never had any concerns about transferring the load from rotors, they do it as well as all other good wheels I have ridden.

And they look amazing, which is probably the most important thing.

[xiyuwang]

353 is way too expensive IMHO. (Zipp's hub always have this and that problem, ZR-1 slips sometimes slips and quite draggy, congnition hub being hardly water proof and requires a lot of careful maintainence.

I'm intrigued by the slipping and careful maintenance you mention. Can you elaborate on this?

ZR-1 is a 33 teeth hub. It has 2 groups of pawls and each group contains 3 pawls (so it has 66 clicks, which is quite a lot for a road bike hub). The problem is that the teeth are comparably tiny. And to reduce the drag, Zipp designed the pawl springs to be weak in tension. So if you use it without maintainence for a long time, the pawls could be sticky, and thus lead to slipping (pawls not rebouncing quick enough to have a proper contact with teeth). Sticky pawl is not an unique problem to ZR-1, but it is more obvious on hubs like ZR-1 because the spring tension is low and the teeth are small. I tried a few lube/grease option and found you really need to use some very light oil to keep the pawls bouncing back quick enough.

Congition hub has V1 and V2 version. The first gen uses magnets to replace springs and the second uses a ring like unconventional spring to push the rachet into place when engaging. Both uses star rachet like DT, but use "unconventional" mechansim to replace spring tension... and introduce problems like if you don't use light oil and maintain it to keep the friction inside low, the rachet would just not engage into place correctly.... although fancy, hubs like cognition is less tested by the market and time so the durability is qurestionable if you compared to mature hub designes like DT's, Shimano's, etc.

Another thing is that ZR-1 and congition have very simple mechanism for water-proofing, which makes it easy for moisture to get inside them, rendering it necessary for frequent maintainence after riding in rains. You'd better pull the freehub off after such a ride and let moisture get away. And I once had the bearing inside the freehub totally stucked and requires replacement due to the ball inside is rusted. (I live in tropical area where it just rains through out the year)

Another thing about ZR-1, is that it engages really really loud. Using the same 7170 groupset with ultegra cassette, I feel like hg+ is not working on my 404 but it works fine on arc 1100 mostly because ZR-1 has a really terrible anagement feelings... (harsh, loud, unpleasant)

[mikehhhhhhh]

Interesting, thank you.

I experienced poor hub sealing on my 303s, where the rear bearings rusted out and got very rough after a few winter rides where it was submerged.

I was hoping the cognition v2 on my 353nsw would be better but I'll be sure to dry it out after wet rides based on your comments

[xiyuwang]

Not something you want to personally test it out, so maybe just dry it out after such a ride. Surprising that you have a badly sealed 303s, which has a almost identical zr-1 as 404. (just the spring being different, based on my understanding).

[mikehhhhhhh]

Not something you want to personally test it out, so maybe just dry it out after such a ride. Surprising that you have a badly sealed 303s, which has a almost identical zr-1 as 404. (just the spring being different, based on my understanding).

I was quite disappointed, it was just the rear but I just replaced the bearings with higher quality, better sealed items.

[jlok]

Bora... as long as campy is using G3 spoke pattern, I am not going to consider it a valid choice. G3 is so sub-optimal for disc brake wheels, I don't know why campy is still using it, sheer dumb. I heard campy made new Boras 23mm internel, still, I don't fancy the G3 pattern for disc brake wheels. Plus, campy has some history that 45mm rims are prone to rim crack due to high tension on the rim because of G3 spoke pattern. They should have addressed this issue, but as long as they are still using G3, you know... You can consider hyperon ultra for sure, but bro it is damn expensive.

Not the first time hearing that. Would love to learn the weakness of G3 on disc brake (I guess it's the rear wheel?). Care to explain in detail?

1. G3 pattern is not inter-laced and this sucks for disc brake wheels because non interlaced pattern is naturally sub-optimal for disc brake (not good at taking torque).

Yes, the torque has to be applied at the DS and therefore the hub shell has to be strong enough to handle the load transfer from rotor to the other side of the hub. How much weight penalty? Given the rear wheel braking force is quite weak, maybe

G3 is an uneven pattern that would have more spoke on the drive side and rotor side (depends, and I don't understand how they justify the case of read wheel because you have rotor side and drive side at the same time putting a lot of torque on the hub and rim). You can also read about this via many YT videos, and you will understand why radial lacing can't take as much torque as 2 cross or 3 cross. (not saying it is un-usable, but sub-optimal at the bery beginning. To make it work, campy use oversized flange, high spoke tension, and probably enhenced the rim... so they can optimize something that is naturally inferior to compete with other brands).

Besides, G3 leaves more part of the rim unsuported. This requires higher rim strength to make sure the rim won't crack due to high tension... And, it is more likely to have rim crackes, particularly for shallower rim profile Boras, such as 45mm.

G3 pattern is great for rim brake wheels, but not disc brake wheels. You can see they don't use it on Hyperon Ultra, I think it is partially because shallow rims will really struggle to hold without cracking.

Thank you. All make sense because we are talking about "optimized". I also think that the Hyperon is more interesting than the new 21-spoke G3 Boras.