Carbon spokes - why?

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Romb1k
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2022 2:38 am

by Romb1k

toxin wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2023 12:03 am
Winspace don't make the spoke, they buy from STREN like almost everyone else. Anyway, here's an actual real-world anecdote about this concern
https://rip.winspace.cc/blog/stick-vs-spoke

this is from winspace's old site that they've replaced so you might get a safety warning, idk if they intend to migrate this to the new site
Do you know where I can buy this STREN spokes for my Winspace?

by Weenie


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Lina
Posts: 1268
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:09 pm

by Lina

Laruso20 wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2024 9:43 pm
Lina wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2023 10:50 am
This is like asking why would someone use carbon frames 30 years ago. It's going to be the way forward, and weightweenies especially should see the why.
If the wheelset with carbon spokes as a summary of weight would be lighter...but it mostly isn't. Because of proprietary and more heavier hubs.
Yes, they aren't that much lighter YET. Yes, the hubs are heavier as of now and you lose the benefits mostly in that. Also, I'm quite sure spoke counts will drastically go down as carbon spokes hit it big. Carbon frames weren't nearly as light as they're now 30 years ago.

Nereth
Posts: 273
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2023 10:18 am

by Nereth

I am not up to date on this discussion (so may be raising points already raised) and don't have a horse in this race, but I look at the failures (or lack thereof) on the last page and people saying "oh I guess they are plenty strong then, carry on", and I do think people are jumping ahead maybe a bit too readily.

First of all, we are sitting here talking about absolute strength on relatively new parts - has anyone discussed that chemical joints (glue/epoxy to some other substrate) are subject to hydrolysis (and other environmental attack) in a way that steel is not? I wander how they will hold up in 5+ years? I think the answer to that question depends a lot on how the joint is designed. May be no issue at all. May be mass failures in a while despite very high strength currently.

I imagine the failure properties after impact or fatigue of carbon to be quite different to steel also. Steel may stretch a bit in impact or prior to final fatigue failure, and thus bring the wheel well out of true. I imagine carbon would instead start breaking strands (which you may not see if they are retained in the polymer matrix) and lose stiffness, while remaining largely the same length. Both would result in a loss of tension and strength, but it may be more difficult to detect the damage/imminent failure in carbon.

Ronin416
Posts: 431
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:46 pm

by Ronin416

Romb1k wrote:
toxin wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2023 12:03 am
Winspace don't make the spoke, they buy from STREN like almost everyone else. Anyway, here's an actual real-world anecdote about this concern
https://rip.winspace.cc/blog/stick-vs-spoke

this is from winspace's old site that they've replaced so you might get a safety warning, idk if they intend to migrate this to the new site
Do you know where I can buy this STREN spokes for my Winspace?
If you contact them, they’ll sell you them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

jlok
Posts: 2504
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am

by jlok

What is the current state of the development? Carbon spokes with proprietary hubs are developed by the same ODM company so every brand sticks their label on the hubs with the same design?
Rikulau V9 DB Custom < BMC TM02 < Litespeed T1sl Disc < Giant Propel Advanced SL Disc 1 < Propel Adv < TCR Adv SL Disc < KTM Revelator Sky < CAAD 12 Disc < Domane S Disc < Alize < CAAD 10

Hexsense
Posts: 3349
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:41 am
Location: USA

by Hexsense

^
If we talk exclusively about large carbon spokes that don't fit into normal hub.
There are not many carbon spokes makers.
STREN is used by a lot of companies. Seems to be the biggest one.
You can say CRW make their own spokes. That's true, but their spokes are so similar to STREN's except, at least visually (excluding their proprietary connector) their spokes don't go through post-polishing process so the finishing looks more raw (and include more visual defects). Despite different source, they are not really technoligically/categorically different.

Hub: There seems to be multiple ODM hubs. Compare to carbon spokes, it's a lot easier to make hub supporting (big) carbon spokes than to make carbon spokes.
There's really nothing tech-wise stopping DT-swiss or Hope or Chris-King or any other big hub companies from releasing their 16, 20 or 21 holes T-head side-spoke-insert hub to support carbon spokes.

But then, design a hub and make them exclusive to your wheel is a fast way to establish a brand, If you have a good idea.
Again, CRW is in this example. They flip spokes around. Spoke head is in the rim and it thread to the hub. So, they utilize their exclusive hub rather than buying somewhere.

EtoDemerzel
Posts: 308
Joined: Sun Dec 17, 2023 4:13 pm

by EtoDemerzel

Stren owns the patent on its spokes. Giant, Winspace and others license their use. This is probably why slow adoption from DT Swiss, CK or any others.

I would rather have weight at the hub than anywhere else. Weight distribution matters.
Besides, the major choices now are all around 1200g for road race depth which is crazy light.
If that mass is concentrated at the hub, even better.

toxin
Posts: 912
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2023 5:56 pm

by toxin

Stren's patwnt also kinda conflicts with an older patent from some taiwanese company.

Wildh
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:11 pm

by Wildh

gruppetto wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2023 9:35 am
toxin wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2023 12:03 am
Winspace don't make the spoke, they buy from STREN like almost everyone else. Anyway, here's an actual real-world anecdote about this concern
https://rip.winspace.cc/blog/stick-vs-spoke

this is from winspace's old site that they've replaced so you might get a safety warning, idk if they intend to migrate this to the new site
I know a case where someones rear derailleur hit another riders spokes during a sprint and 3 spokes were completely shattered. Not saying this could not have happened with steel spokes, but as always with carbon, I think it depends on the type and direction of the forces acting.
This happened to me going 30mph in a group during a race. Ironically I was riding topolino wheels with carbon spokes. Shredded 3 spokes and I went down hard!

It was the left side skewer of the other kids bike. I don't think and spokes would've handled it.

Wildh
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:11 pm

by Wildh

Hexsense wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2024 3:36 am
^
If we talk exclusively about large carbon spokes that don't fit into normal hub.
There are not many carbon spokes makers.
STREN is used by a lot of companies. Seems to be the biggest one.
You can say CRW make their own spokes. That's true, but their spokes are so similar to STREN's except, at least visually (excluding their proprietary connector) their spokes don't go through post-polishing process so the finishing looks more raw (and include more visual defects). Despite different source, they are not really technoligically/categorically different.

Hub: There seems to be multiple ODM hubs. Compare to carbon spokes, it's a lot easier to make hub supporting (big) carbon spokes than to make carbon spokes.
There's really nothing tech-wise stopping DT-swiss or Hope or Chris-King or any other big hub companies from releasing their 16, 20 or 21 holes T-head side-spoke-insert hub to support carbon spokes.

But then, design a hub and make them exclusive to your wheel is a fast way to establish a brand, If you have a good idea.
Again, CRW is in this example. They flip spokes around. Spoke head is in the rim and it thread to the hub. So, they utilize their exclusive hub rather than buying somewhere.
Chosen is who makes a lot of the hubs being used by sellers on Ali for carbon spokes. Might even need who winspace is using. Now offered with a star ratchet hub.

Ronin416
Posts: 431
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:46 pm

by Ronin416

Wildh wrote:
gruppetto wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2023 9:35 am
toxin wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2023 12:03 am
Winspace don't make the spoke, they buy from STREN like almost everyone else. Anyway, here's an actual real-world anecdote about this concern
https://rip.winspace.cc/blog/stick-vs-spoke

this is from winspace's old site that they've replaced so you might get a safety warning, idk if they intend to migrate this to the new site
I know a case where someones rear derailleur hit another riders spokes during a sprint and 3 spokes were completely shattered. Not saying this could not have happened with steel spokes, but as always with carbon, I think it depends on the type and direction of the forces acting.
This happened to me going 30mph in a group during a race. Ironically I was riding topolino wheels with carbon spokes. Shredded 3 spokes and I went down hard!

It was the left side skewer of the other kids bike. I don't think and spokes would've handled it.
II agree, you’re going down whether it was steel or carbon spokes.


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Ronin416
Posts: 431
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:46 pm

by Ronin416

Wildh wrote:
Hexsense wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2024 3:36 am
^
If we talk exclusively about large carbon spokes that don't fit into normal hub.
There are not many carbon spokes makers.
STREN is used by a lot of companies. Seems to be the biggest one.
You can say CRW make their own spokes. That's true, but their spokes are so similar to STREN's except, at least visually (excluding their proprietary connector) their spokes don't go through post-polishing process so the finishing looks more raw (and include more visual defects). Despite different source, they are not really technoligically/categorically different.

Hub: There seems to be multiple ODM hubs. Compare to carbon spokes, it's a lot easier to make hub supporting (big) carbon spokes than to make carbon spokes.
There's really nothing tech-wise stopping DT-swiss or Hope or Chris-King or any other big hub companies from releasing their 16, 20 or 21 holes T-head side-spoke-insert hub to support carbon spokes.

But then, design a hub and make them exclusive to your wheel is a fast way to establish a brand, If you have a good idea.
Again, CRW is in this example. They flip spokes around. Spoke head is in the rim and it thread to the hub. So, they utilize their exclusive hub rather than buying somewhere.
Chosen is who makes a lot of the hubs being used by sellers on Ali for carbon spokes. Might even need who winspace is using. Now offered with a star ratchet hub.
Most quality Chinese hub manufacturers offer a hub flange that accommodates carbon spokes now.


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exoterm
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2024 9:18 pm

by exoterm

tiberiade wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2023 2:59 pm
The biggest issue is by far reliability. Here's what my carbon spoke wheelset from Lightbicycle looked like on arrival: https://youtu.be/yMOlqI8VYSE?si=tYXUzbZ3nKGy3lp_

Having your spokes glued is definitely a risk. Might be all right for short road rides but definitely something to avoid off road.
thats their "new" model spoke for use with any hub?

Hexsense
Posts: 3349
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:41 am
Location: USA

by Hexsense

exoterm wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2024 9:46 pm
thats their "new" model spoke for use with any hub?
That's their "discontinued" model spokes for use with normal hub.

This botched carbon spokes which require joint connector isn't durable.

So Light-Bicycle stop trying that idea and only keep making oversized version which require special hub since.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

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Hensem
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2024 4:36 pm

by Hensem

Hexsense wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2024 10:47 pm
So Light-Bicycle stop trying that idea and only keep making oversized version which require special hub since.
So is this why LightBycycle stopped assembling custom wheels on carbon spokes and only sells “their” carbon wheel sets?

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