Carbon spokes - why?

Wheels, Tires, Tubes, Tubeless, Tubs, Spokes, Hookless, Hubs, and more!

Moderator: robbosmans

Forum rules
The spirit of this board is to compile and organize wheels and tires related discussions.

If a new wheel tech is released, (say for example, TPU tubes, a brand new tire, or a new rim standard), feel free to start the discussion in the popular "Road". Your topic will eventually be moved here!
Laruso20
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2023 1:41 pm

by Laruso20

@hannawald: You are right and my conclusion is primarily based on the information I got. That's becaues the stiffness point got no + nor - for me.

The linked video from Lueschner Teknik showing the lateral impact resistance of actual winspace carbon spokes is amazing and (with probably some other manufacturers right now) defenitely in contrast with the concerns of some who do sell carbon spokes but wouldn't like to do so.

You're also right that the better feel of acceleration is only slightly from lower weight but more so from the gain of stiffness. But could you say the positive performance is all over the place of carbon spokes and will hold up the safety promises for the next 10-20 years. Probably not.

It really depends on the riding conditions like smoothness of road and system weight. I am on all-road use and system weight of >95 kg and don't want to go with 16 spokes. Carbon or steel, doesn't mind. For my peace of mind, at least 21 for carbon and 24 for steel.

I think big brands are kind of hesitating and don't want to get blamed (again) for bad durability and being responsive for crashes out of shortage developments before sale. And of course it's easier do let do others the test and manufacturing devs, and jump on when demands and possible sale charges ramp up.

Nickldn
Posts: 2011
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:35 am

by Nickldn

Good point about impact resistance. Have carbon spokes been CE approved? If not then that's probably the reason Western companies don't use them in their products.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



tiberiade
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon May 08, 2023 6:02 pm

by tiberiade

The biggest issue is by far reliability. Here's what my carbon spoke wheelset from Lightbicycle looked like on arrival: https://youtu.be/yMOlqI8VYSE?si=tYXUzbZ3nKGy3lp_

Having your spokes glued is definitely a risk. Might be all right for short road rides but definitely something to avoid off road.

toxin
Posts: 928
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2023 5:56 pm

by toxin

This is why you get carbon spoke specific hubs

AJS914
Posts: 5498
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

From this topic, I'm happy to find that carbon fiber spokes are way stronger than I thought they were but there still seems to be some small risk. Still personally, I don't need bleeding edge light weightness so I'll stick with regular spokes.

Some interesting destruction testing here:

https://youtu.be/8Xu_4BIxNqY?si=Wr6C08wZXSaY9N3Y&t=532

In the Luescher video, I was waiting for him to break the spoke. I'm not sure why he held back and only tapped it with a ruler.

gurk700
Posts: 1042
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:40 pm

by gurk700

I maybe able to help out answer the question of "why carbon spokes"
I have done extensive research, testing and have scientific data to back this up.

It all comes down to this.


They look f*cking sick.

spdntrxi
Posts: 6013
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

gurk700 wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2023 8:34 pm
I maybe able to help out answer the question of "why carbon spokes"
I have done extensive research, testing and have scientific data to back this up.

It all comes down to this.


They look f*cking sick.
no disagreement there.. I love the look of my Cadex wheels on my bike. Much better then my deeper Enves. Gives me those fond Obermayer "feels" that I used to have.
2024 BMC TeamMachine R
2018 BMC TImeMachine Road
2002 Moots Compact-SL
2019 Parlee Z0XD - "classified"
2023 Pivot E-Vault

tiberiade
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon May 08, 2023 6:02 pm

by tiberiade

toxin wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2023 3:25 pm
This is why you get carbon spoke specific hubs
Had nothing to do with the hubs… nothing.

Lina
Posts: 1275
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:09 pm

by Lina

This is like asking why would someone use carbon frames 30 years ago. It's going to be the way forward, and weightweenies especially should see the why.

toxin
Posts: 928
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2023 5:56 pm

by toxin

tiberiade wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2023 10:11 am
toxin wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2023 3:25 pm
This is why you get carbon spoke specific hubs
Had nothing to do with the hubs… nothing.
Carbon spoke specific hubs means you can use the kind of spoke design that prevents that

UpFromOne
Posts: 1209
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 5:23 am
Location: Olympic Nat'l Park, WA

by UpFromOne

I have tried other brands, but prefer EIE carbon spokes.
This example was hit with a hammer in the wheel. It fractured some of the filaments but still held tension.
Image

Point being that they don't just snap clean apart.

hannawald
Posts: 1775
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 7:28 pm
Location: Czech Republic

by hannawald

I had a chance to quickly speak about carbon spokes with a local distributor of a well known wheelset brand. His oppinion on carbon spokes was that it is good for amateurs but not for the pros because of more frequent crashes and more demanding maintenance. They have something in development for 2 years or so but still not happy with riding properties. They had to develop a unique rim and bigger bearings for that because the spokes are stiffer and transfer more load on the bearings. He said using the same rim and similar hub means you are sacrifising comfort and durability. That's what most chinese do - they mix same components with different spokes, maybe use 21 spokes instead of 24. But they don't do riding tests. They just do it and If it doesn't work they just make a new model later.
Something like that, I am not an engineer so I might have misunderstood something:)
My idea: If carbon spokes are really more prone to failures like handlebars - you have a crash and couple of bikes fall, all look ok and later it snaps then it wouldn't be good for pros. It is also more prone to abrasion than metal...

Ronin416
Posts: 432
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:46 pm

by Ronin416

hannawald wrote:I had a chance to quickly speak about carbon spokes with a local distributor of a well known wheelset brand. His oppinion on carbon spokes was that it is good for amateurs but not for the pros because of more frequent crashes and more demanding maintenance. They have something in development for 2 years or so but still not happy with riding properties. They had to develop a unique rim and bigger bearings for that because the spokes are stiffer and transfer more load on the bearings. He said using the same rim and similar hub means you are sacrifising comfort and durability. That's what most chinese do - they mix same components with different spokes, maybe use 21 spokes instead of 24. But they don't do riding tests. They just do it and If it doesn't work they just make a new model later.
Something like that, I am not an engineer so I might have misunderstood something:)
My idea: If carbon spokes are really more prone to failures like handlebars - you have a crash and couple of bikes fall, all look ok and later it snaps then it wouldn't be good for pros. It is also more prone to abrasion than metal...
Not good for the “Pros” - I think the opposite. They want the best performing products available. Some Pro Tour Teams have already used carbon spokes consistently in their racing programs. Giant Cadex wheels are used by their pro teams, ridden in the Classics and Grand Tours, some tubular rims laced with carbon spokes have been on mountain stages as well.

As for being too stiff and resulting in more of a transfer load to the hubs. That’s fine, the larger bearing and reengineered hubs can handle it. Plus larger bearings handle contamination a lot better.

I’d want my wheels stiffer rather than softer, with little lateral deflection and nimble responsive feeling and good acceleration response. In terms of comfort - I’ll let my tire choice and tire pressure determine that. Sort of like a race car - keep the chassis stiff and let the suspension do the work of dampening the bumps.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

spdntrxi
Posts: 6013
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

I have the Cadex 50 ultras.. I love em' .. would love. to try the Syncros version.
2024 BMC TeamMachine R
2018 BMC TImeMachine Road
2002 Moots Compact-SL
2019 Parlee Z0XD - "classified"
2023 Pivot E-Vault

Laruso20
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2023 1:41 pm

by Laruso20

Lina wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2023 10:50 am
This is like asking why would someone use carbon frames 30 years ago. It's going to be the way forward, and weightweenies especially should see the why.
If the wheelset with carbon spokes as a summary of weight would be lighter...but it mostly isn't. Because of proprietary and more heavier hubs.

As ronin416 said, if the tire do the suspension, everything might be OK and it would be good to have a stiffer wheelset. Especially in lateral dimension. But most of us would benefit in also having some compliance from the wheel in addition to the tires.
Some crosspoints to the motor racing scene are abstruse because is lacks of real arguments that overlaps to the unmotorized bike purposes and properties. Different parameters results in different requirements and needs different solutions. You can't transfer arguments without the relation to the parameters they rely on. (For example, think of rotation speed and acceleration, therefor the needed stiffness and longevity of materials. You also wouldn't say to better mount 700 mm tires on a bike just because the Formula 1 guys do it; and they know about aero. :lol:)

After all I don't think it's any good to ride carbon spokes. Only from what I have read. Really would like to tell you from my own experience, but there are enough guys out there who will let you know if it is any little chance to have a benefit for a advanced or amateur or recreational rider. For now and the near future it isn't.

Yes, let's push things forward with our demands and recheck any improvement and development. :beerchug:
But honestly let's say if it's worth with the addition for what kind of riders in mind! :smartass:

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



Post Reply