Prime Primavera 56 unstable

[theOrtherion]

Hello guys,

a bit of introduction. I have a focus izalco max with DT Swiss ERC1400 45mm rims with GP5000 in 28mm. This combination is awesome, fast, comfortable and pretty much never had any problems related with wind sensivity. The worst case i had was with old DT Swiss P1800 but nothing to major. Just felt the wind a little bit more but it needed a serious gust of wind.

However recently i've bought a Cinelli Nemo Tig Disc and was using the DT swiss P1800 with 26c Vittoria corsa next tyres and ocassionally was sharing the ERC 1400 between the two frames.

I do love the Cinelli and i understand that the frame is a little bit more wind sensitive but never had any major problems, so i was considering upgrading the wheels for something a little more modern. I wanted something carbon and wide but not to expensive so i've bought the Prime Primavera 56 on a discount and mounted de 26c vittoria tyres. Inittially I was considering the 44mm depth but they were out of stock and i though that 56mm wouldnt cause much problem. However i feel very unstable with these wheels. Anything above 30kph with some wind, and even without wind just the air passing by as i ride i feel that the bike becomes alive and i cant predict and control the bike, to the point that i started having speeed wobbles which i never had in my life.
It's impossible to descend on this bike like this. I contacted Chain Reaction Cycles and since i mounted the wheels i cannot return them. Can you please give me some inputs if this is normal, or am i doing something wrong?

[Lakal]

Have you tried to switch back to one of the other wheelsets? Just to be sure that it is wheel related and not a problem with the headset etc.

[theOrtherion]

Have you tried to switch back to one of the other wheelsets? Just to be sure that it is wheel related and not a problem with the headset etc.

Did it today with the ERC1400, which i know are super stable. Despite the problem diminishing its still there. The only thing that changed was the inner tubes that i changed to TPU but to be honest im not sure if thats even possible. Will try normal butyl tubes and try again. If the same problem persists than its the frameset, which is weird because the frameset is new and i never had any problems until now when i installed the Privamera 56. The fork seems really rigid without any kind of play.

[Mr.Gib]

Some combinations just don't work. In this case it sounds like the combination of you and the new Cinelli. While a significant change in your position on the bike might solve the problem, it might never work for you regardless of wheel choice. The fact that the Focus was near perfect suggests that the probem is the new frame. Have you tried the new wheels on the Focus? That would tell the whole story.

[RadB]

Could be the frame and how the new wheels interact with it and particular the front end and top tube, and also how you are sitting on the new frame. The reasons for bike speed wobbles are pretty well known, so you could eliminate a few things by looking it up. Also, was there anything about the particular road surface or weather conditions (colder than normal for example) that was different to normal?
Addendum: I have an my20 propel disc sold with 45/58mm mullet wheels, I replaced them with 65/65 and it went from a downhill Kom weapon to dangerously unrideable above 70kmh. Night and day.

[theOrtherion]

Some combinations just don't work. In this case it sounds like the combination of you and the new Cinelli. While a significant change in your position on the bike might solve the problem, it might never work for you regardless of wheel choice. The fact that the Focus was near perfect suggests that the probem is the new frame. Have you tried the new wheels on the Focus? That would tell the whole story.

The thing is ia have this frameset from May and this is the first time i felt like this. The frame was stable before. Im completely puzzled.

[pushpush]

To echo what others have said. Some combinations just don't work. The physics of what causes wheel wobble, and how to address it are COMPLICATED.

I have a set of Enve45 wheels that routinely try to kill me. Below 40mph they are perfect and stable. Above 42mph, random bumps, either from the road or from the wind, will kick off an oscillation that is terrifying. I had them rebuilt with new hoops by Enve to be sure there wasn't something wrong. I swapped frames. I changed nearly every component. I tried different tires. I gained and lost weight. I saw two different fitters. I worked on weight distribution. on and on and on. Nothing mattered.

In the end, I swapped wheelsets and no more problems.

Same frames, same tires, same rider, same roads and conditions with a different set of wheels and it is fine.

[SaladhOlivier]

I have had a similar experience with Primavera 44 on two different frames - a Cube GTC SL with mudguards and Time ADH Disc. The front on the former was very unstable in conditions similar to you described. Perhaps, mudguards also contributed to that. On the latter the front wheel is unstable and twitchy at higher speeds, like, 50kph+. I even got a speed wobble on one of my last rides, which I have never experienced before.
Perhaps, it's a shape of the wheel, which contributes to instability. The wheels certainly don't give me confidence.
In a contrast, I have bontrager aeolus rsl 51 wheels and those were very predictable in very gusty conditions. They act rather as a sail, but nothing like Prime.

Some years ago I also had relatively cheap Hunt u-shape 50, and my experience with them was similar to Primaveras.

[theOrtherion]

I have had a similar experience with Primavera 44 on two different frames - a Cube GTC SL with mudguards and Time ADH Disc. The front on the former was very unstable in conditions similar to you described. Perhaps, mudguards also contributed to that. On the latter the front wheel is unstable and twitchy at higher speeds, like, 50kph+. I even got a speed wobble on one of my last rides, which I have never experienced before.
Perhaps, it's a shape of the wheel, which contributes to instability. The wheels certainly don't give me confidence.
In a contrast, I have bontrager aeolus rsl 51 wheels and those were very predictable in very gusty conditions. They act rather as a sail, but nothing like Prime.

Some years ago I also had relatively cheap Hunt u-shape 50, and my experience with them was similar to Primaveras.

That's sad to read. I recently bought some different tyres to test the wheels and will post updates. One thing I noticed is the fact that the front wheel is not balanced. It always rotates to a specific point (that is the valve). Will also try to balance them to see if that helps. I guess we get what we pay for but in this case they are really unridable.

[Nickldn]

One thing I noticed is the fact that the front wheel is not balanced. It always rotates to a specific point (that is the valve). Will also try to balance them to see if that helps.

That is the case with 99.9% of all bike wheels (100% of the wheels I have owned). And most bike wheels work pretty well even when descending at c. 50mph.

Balancing bike wheels is a niche past time, even for pros.

[wheelbuilder]

I have had a similar experience with Primavera 44 on two different frames - a Cube GTC SL with mudguards and Time ADH Disc. The front on the former was very unstable in conditions similar to you described. Perhaps, mudguards also contributed to that. On the latter the front wheel is unstable and twitchy at higher speeds, like, 50kph+. I even got a speed wobble on one of my last rides, which I have never experienced before.
Perhaps, it's a shape of the wheel, which contributes to instability. The wheels certainly don't give me confidence.
In a contrast, I have bontrager aeolus rsl 51 wheels and those were very predictable in very gusty conditions. They act rather as a sail, but nothing like Prime.

Some years ago I also had relatively cheap Hunt u-shape 50, and my experience with them was similar to Primaveras.

That's sad to read. I recently bought some different tyres to test the wheels and will post updates. One thing I noticed is the fact that the front wheel is not balanced. It always rotates to a specific point (that is the valve). Will also try to balance them to see if that helps. I guess we get what we pay for but in this case they are really unridable.

That's where you want the wheel to naturally rotate. If it was rotating to some other position on the wheel that wasn't the valve, and the rim had not been balanced beforehand, I would suspect an "out of round/balace" rim or wheel build. Be happy it's settling there. That's what you want.

[bikeboy1tr]

I have a 50 Prime tubular wheelset and running Vit 25/28mm and they have been good in the wind,and descents. I am 80kg riding a Col.V2R rim brake and the wheelset has been better than the Easton 55 Echo wheelset that I have as well. The area I ride is typically very windy most of the time and the only thing I dislike about the Prime is the soft aluminum nipples they use as they are delicate when truing a wheel.
One thing about modern frames and the headsets at least some I have worked on is the headset can be somewhat loose but you cant really feel it when grabbing the frame and fork to try and wiggle them. Most times I put a wrench on the headset to check for looseness.

[Nickldn]

Possibly a good idea to check spoke tension. If wheels were not QC'd well then you may have uneven tension, which is causing handling issues.

[theOrtherion]

One thing I noticed is the fact that the front wheel is not balanced. It always rotates to a specific point (that is the valve). Will also try to balance them to see if that helps.

That is the case with 99.9% of all bike wheels (100% of the wheels I have owned). And most bike wheels work pretty well even when descending at c. 50mph.

Balancing bike wheels is a niche past time, even for pros.

My dt Swiss erc 1400 45mm sit completely still and I feel very secure with them. The prime just raising the handlebar from the ground the wheel starts rotating and placing the valve to the bottom.
I understand that maybe a some sort of last resource from my side but I can't understand why they are behaving like that considering that the frameset is new as well as the wheels.

Possibly a good idea to check spoke tension. If wheels were not QC'd well then you may have uneven tension, which is causing handling issues.

How do I do that considering I have no tools for that?

I have a 50 Prime tubular wheelset and running Vit 25/28mm and they have been good in the wind,and descents. I am 80kg riding a Col.V2R rim brake and the wheelset has been better than the Easton 55 Echo wheelset that I have as well. The area I ride is typically very windy most of the time and the only thing I dislike about the Prime is the soft aluminum nipples they use as they are delicate when truing a wheel.
One thing about modern frames and the headsets at least some I have worked on is the headset can be somewhat loose but you cant really feel it when grabbing the frame and fork to try and wiggle them. Most times I put a wrench on the headset to check for looseness.

I wish I could say the same because when the wheels work they work just fine. In perfect conditions I can clearly feel the "sail" effect, but that's just 10% of the time. The other 90 are the wheels trying to kill me. What do you mean put I wrench on the headset? The frameset is new. Bought in march.

[RDY]

One thing I noticed is the fact that the front wheel is not balanced. It always rotates to a specific point (that is the valve). Will also try to balance them to see if that helps.

That is the case with 99.9% of all bike wheels (100% of the wheels I have owned). And most bike wheels work pretty well even when descending at c. 50mph.

Balancing bike wheels is a niche past time, even for pros.

My dt Swiss erc 1400 45mm sit completely still and I feel very secure with them. The prime just raising the handlebar from the ground the wheel starts rotating and placing the valve to the bottom.
I understand that maybe a some sort of last resource from my side but I can't understand why they are behaving like that considering that the frameset is new as well as the wheels.

Possibly a good idea to check spoke tension. If wheels were not QC'd well then you may have uneven tension, which is causing handling issues.

How do I do that considering I have no tools for that?

I have a 50 Prime tubular wheelset and running Vit 25/28mm and they have been good in the wind,and descents. I am 80kg riding a Col.V2R rim brake and the wheelset has been better than the Easton 55 Echo wheelset that I have as well. The area I ride is typically very windy most of the time and the only thing I dislike about the Prime is the soft aluminum nipples they use as they are delicate when truing a wheel.
One thing about modern frames and the headsets at least some I have worked on is the headset can be somewhat loose but you cant really feel it when grabbing the frame and fork to try and wiggle them. Most times I put a wrench on the headset to check for looseness.

I wish I could say the same because when the wheels work they work just fine. In perfect conditions I can clearly feel the "sail" effect, but that's just 10% of the time. The other 90 are the wheels trying to kill me. What do you mean put I wrench on the headset? The frameset is new. Bought in march.

Given your last couple of responses here, I'd highly recommend taking it to a good local mechanic. I don't think you have any idea what you're dealing with (no offense). They can help eliminate the low hanging fruit and potentially solve the issue.