New ETRTO regs, are your hookless rims/tyre compatible?

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Nickldn
Posts: 2016
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:35 am

by Nickldn

ETRTO no longer endorse use of 25mm internal width hookless rims with 28mm tyres. This potentially affects a lot of expensive hookless wheels sold with the promise of high aero performance when paired with 28mm tyres.

The minimum safe tyre size for 25mm iw hookless is now 30mm according to ETRTO. Some wheel manufacturers beg to differ and insist 28mm tyres have been tested with their rims and are considered safe.

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/products/ ... egulations
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TobinHatesYou
Posts: 13062
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

ETRTO guidelines are not something that has to be strictly adhered to, so I don’t know if anything will really change. I doubt many brands selling 25mm wide rims will suddenly switch to 24mm internal for the. next generation.

IMO hookless should be avoided because it’s hookless, not because of specific rim width / tire width combo limitations. While the guidelines cover hooked rims too, I have not heard of any cases where a 28mm tire has blown off a 25mm hooked rim JRA.

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warthog101
Posts: 981
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:05 am

by warthog101

This may be worth a bit of a read.

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/products/ ... egulations

A bit of compilation of some bits I found interesting. Makes hookless more undesirable it appears.

In a formal statement Zipp said “As participants in the ETRTO standards meetings, we knew the compatibility table would change. We understand the updates, but they contradict our position.

“Zipp has tested, designed, and developed several popular and professionally proven wheelsets with 23 and 25mm internal widths. We know there have been enough wheelsets ridden in the past several years with the 28c tires on 25mm rims to prove that the combination is safe and delivers many proven performance benefits”.

ENVE holds the same position. “This blanket recommendation from ETRTO just doesn’t capture the nuances,” says Jake Pantone, Vice President of Product & Brand. “The new guidance also states “labelled” tyre size. Well, all that tells a product manager is that I can label yesterday’s 28 as a 29 and now I’m good. I can point to 30mm tyres that have come off 21-25mm internal rims, and I have a whole list of 28mm (labelled) tyres that are built such that they stay on a properly built 25mm internal width rim without issues.”

“[ETRTO] uses the words ‘recommendation’ and ‘stated’,” continues Pantone, “These are guidelines, not a standard, not a mandate."

On the flip side to Zipp and Enve are Continental and Mavic, also both on the ETRTO committee, and who hold opposite positions to the aforementioned wheel brands.

In responding to our request for comment, Continental sent us a statement that reads: “The recommendations and standards which are implemented by the ETRTO are a common ground to build an industry standard between rim, tire and valve manufacturers.

“Those standards should be considered as a baseline for manufacturers and developers where improvements and innovations can arise from. The main intention behind the standards are “barriers" to ensure a safe and functional surrounding that parts in the industry are compatible with each other and ensure safety for end consumers. So yes, Continental agrees with the recommendations from ETRTO”

It’s a similar line from Mavic, with Lethenet telling us that its “...tire instructions are based on the official ETRTO recommendations”.

Bicycle wheel manufacturers conduct their own in-house testing on tire compatibility, and the ETRTO does not. This means that all regulations are always made retrospectively, much like UCI guidelines.

“While the new compatibility table removes the combinations that Zipp advocates for,” comments Zipp in its official statement “the current table will move to a section of the ETRTO norm called PSD, the Previous Standard Data, demonstrating that those combinations are safe and can still be used”.

Blake from Hunt helpfully puts it all into perspective “We’ve never seen an issue of derailment with 25mm [internal] rims and 25mm tires that wasn’t caused from over inflating of the tyre” he reassures us.

“My concern is however, that the proverbial can is being kicked down the road," he says. Tire brands will be the ones that evolve to adhere to the new standards, and then compatibility with existing rims will eventually become an issue."

"So while it is fine to run the older standard now, you’ll probably struggle to get a 28mm tire that’s still compatible with a 25mm internal hookless rim in a couple of years. It’s the consumer who will be left out of pocket ”.

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C36
Posts: 2555
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:24 am

by C36

Many brands are by internal regulation required to design wheels / tires that are following the ETRTO std. In some cases the parent company is forcing them to do so to protect from liability issues.
I had extensive discussion with Michelin and Continental people and they cant get their s..t together. Their customer services says they stick to ETRTO... but the actually published regulation (guess the changes are not yet made public and I understood the big changes will be on the 2024 version). Now talking to Engineers, they said they won't ever recoment to use 28mm on 25mm rims (both brands) but that is clearly not cascaded yet down to Customer services...

To the question but your 28mm tire is way wider than nominal 28mm tires so can I treat it as a 29? they couldn't provide a reasonable answer and that adds to the complexity.

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wheelsONfire
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Location: NorthEU

by wheelsONfire

When Stans No tubes released Avion (21mm internal), 25mm tire with inner tube, 28mm tubeless was the narrowest tires allowed.
They were probably among the first with wide internal rims and hookless. Since then it seems rims are getting wider and wider.
Personally, i wouldn't go for any rim without hooks if i bought tubeless, because you still might want to use a wheelset with tube.
The rims should handle 100 psi if you want to ride with inner tubes. Not that many will run 100 psi, but the rims should handle it.
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Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
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wickedstealthy
Posts: 454
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2021 3:16 pm

by wickedstealthy

:welcome:
C36 wrote:
Mon Jun 12, 2023 9:53 pm
Many brands are by internal regulation required to design wheels / tires that are following the ETRTO std. In some cases the parent company is forcing them to do so to protect from liability issues.
I had extensive discussion with Michelin and Continental people and they cant get their s..t together. Their customer services says they stick to ETRTO... but the actually published regulation (guess the changes are not yet made public and I understood the big changes will be on the 2024 version). Now talking to Engineers, they said they won't ever recoment to use 28mm on 25mm rims (both brands) but that is clearly not cascaded yet down to Customer services...

To the question but your 28mm tire is way wider than nominal 28mm tires so can I treat it as a 29? they couldn't provide a reasonable answer and that adds to the complexity.
Made several times a request for info on recommendations and hardly got information. Only Schwalbe seems to be responsive. This whole stuff is a pure shit show and we as customers pay way too much money for this *f##k* up.
I run 26mm on 23mm iw dukes and they blow up to 28,6. I compared this to a 28mm ere research ccr clincher and this tire is smaller in both width and height !!! Not by much but at least after some ride they will be equal in width and height not more. At least they are true to size and not something weird.
The gp5000 on the other hand in size 25mm runs very small and I would not fit it on a 23iw but the gp5000 28mm runs extremely wide even on a 21iw it goes to +30mm
So as a customer this is completely bullshit and nobody sticks to any std it seems. A 25mm should run 25 on a 19c and not a mm more. A 28mm should run 28mm on a 19c rim now etc
Also those Pirelli's are blowing up bigger then they should but at least it's not as bad as those nee michelin and Continental tires
I don't care what reasoning is behind all this but if they would really stick to a std then this all would be less of an issue.
The rim manufacturers can design wheels with a target in mind (iw and ow). Now it's all guessing and what works today likely won't work tomorrow

RadB
Posts: 240
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2020 3:24 am

by RadB

I got a hookless wheelset on a new bike, ordered 25s by mistake, am just waiting for the 28s to arrive any day. This has confirmed my deep seated mistrust of hookless and its dependencies (and my life) on everyone in the associated industries playing along to a set of rules that don't exist.

vaancee
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2022 8:53 am

by vaancee

I have a Cervelo Soloist that came with Reserve 40/44 wheels, which has a 25.5mm front and 25mm rear width, and 700x28 tires running tubes. 700x28 is the minimum "recommended" size on Reserve's website. I've previously inquired with them about using 700x25 tires, and they said that's a no. These are hooked (they say semi-hooked) rims. I've ridden 4k miles with absolutely no problems. Should I start to worry now? Going up to a 700x30 tire isn't the end of the world for me but mind you I had my reservations about going to 700x28 already as I was so used to 700x25 on my previous bikes.

Reserve's website has not updated the 40/44 rims with new recommended sizes, and still say 28mm on the lower end. They recently released a wheelset (the 42/49's). This new wheelset is a little more narrow (like 24mm internal width), but indicate that 29mm is the smallest recommended tire size.

I've read articles on these how Continental agrees with the new ETRTO standard, but I am a little skeptical of that because IME, their tires are always marked a size bigger.

I've gone through 2 sets of 700x28 tires already and both sets measured to 31mm wide after being mounted. I'm due for another set of tires now. Curious if I can just stick to 700x28, and just ensure that after mounting, that it measures to at least 30mm? The latest version of this bike being sold still comes with these wheels and 700x28 tires.

Junior Varsity
in the industry
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by Junior Varsity

vaancee wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2024 12:50 am
I have a Cervelo Soloist that came with Reserve 40/44 wheels, which has a 25.5mm front and 25mm rear width, and 700x28 tires running tubes. 700x28 is the minimum "recommended" size on Reserve's website. I've previously inquired with them about using 700x25 tires, and they said that's a no. These are hooked (they say semi-hooked) rims. I've ridden 4k miles with absolutely no problems. Should I start to worry now? Going up to a 700x30 tire isn't the end of the world for me but mind you I had my reservations about going to 700x28 already as I was so used to 700x25 on my previous bikes.

Reserve's website has not updated the 40/44 rims with new recommended sizes, and still say 28mm on the lower end. They recently released a wheelset (the 42/49's). This new wheelset is a little more narrow (like 24mm internal width), but indicate that 29mm is the smallest recommended tire size.

I've read articles on these how Continental agrees with the new ETRTO standard, but I am a little skeptical of that because IME, their tires are always marked a size bigger.

I've gone through 2 sets of 700x28 tires already and both sets measured to 31mm wide after being mounted. I'm due for another set of tires now. Curious if I can just stick to 700x28, and just ensure that after mounting, that it measures to at least 30mm? The latest version of this bike being sold still comes with these wheels and 700x28 tires.
Whether a 28-622 tire expands to 30mm has no bearing on the ETRTO recommendations.

If following ISO / ETRTO then the difference between a 28-622 tire and a 30-622 tire on your rims won't be as large as you think. A 28-622 tire is designed to be 28mm on a 19mm inner rim (its design rim). The 30-622 is designed to be 30mm on an inner 21mm rim. Following a general estimation, a tire will grow by 0.4 * the difference between design and applied rim. This means a 28-622 tire would increase to 30.4 on a 25mm rim. A 30-622 tire would be approx. 31.6mm on that same 25mm inner rim. Tires will also stretch over time so I would expect variances up to +/- 1mm.
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TLN
Posts: 652
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:50 pm

by TLN

You can feel substantianal hook on those Reserves. I'm not sure what's the difference with reguar hooked wheels: I got some, and it feels identical.
I'd not be worried about that. 40/44 is really great wheelset.
His: Orbea Orca OMX
Hers: Cannondale Synapse HM Disc

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