New ETRTO regs, are your hookless rims/tyre compatible?

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Nickldn
Posts: 1866
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:35 am

by Nickldn

ETRTO no longer endorse use of 25mm internal width hookless rims with 28mm tyres. This potentially affects a lot of expensive hookless wheels sold with the promise of high aero performance when paired with 28mm tyres.

The minimum safe tyre size for 25mm iw hookless is now 30mm according to ETRTO. Some wheel manufacturers beg to differ and insist 28mm tyres have been tested with their rims and are considered safe.

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/products/ ... egulations
Giant Propel Advanced SL Red Etap 11s Easton EC90 wheels CeramicSpeed BB Zipp SL70 bars 6.5kg

Vitus ZX1 CRS Campy Chorus 12s Bora WTO 45 disk brake wheels Zipp SL70 bars 7.5kg

SL8 build with Craft CS5060 Wheels in progress

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TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12456
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

ETRTO guidelines are not something that has to be strictly adhered to, so I don’t know if anything will really change. I doubt many brands selling 25mm wide rims will suddenly switch to 24mm internal for the. next generation.

IMO hookless should be avoided because it’s hookless, not because of specific rim width / tire width combo limitations. While the guidelines cover hooked rims too, I have not heard of any cases where a 28mm tire has blown off a 25mm hooked rim JRA.

warthog101
Posts: 872
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:05 am

by warthog101

This may be worth a bit of a read.

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/products/ ... egulations

A bit of compilation of some bits I found interesting. Makes hookless more undesirable it appears.

In a formal statement Zipp said “As participants in the ETRTO standards meetings, we knew the compatibility table would change. We understand the updates, but they contradict our position.

“Zipp has tested, designed, and developed several popular and professionally proven wheelsets with 23 and 25mm internal widths. We know there have been enough wheelsets ridden in the past several years with the 28c tires on 25mm rims to prove that the combination is safe and delivers many proven performance benefits”.

ENVE holds the same position. “This blanket recommendation from ETRTO just doesn’t capture the nuances,” says Jake Pantone, Vice President of Product & Brand. “The new guidance also states “labelled” tyre size. Well, all that tells a product manager is that I can label yesterday’s 28 as a 29 and now I’m good. I can point to 30mm tyres that have come off 21-25mm internal rims, and I have a whole list of 28mm (labelled) tyres that are built such that they stay on a properly built 25mm internal width rim without issues.”

“[ETRTO] uses the words ‘recommendation’ and ‘stated’,” continues Pantone, “These are guidelines, not a standard, not a mandate."

On the flip side to Zipp and Enve are Continental and Mavic, also both on the ETRTO committee, and who hold opposite positions to the aforementioned wheel brands.

In responding to our request for comment, Continental sent us a statement that reads: “The recommendations and standards which are implemented by the ETRTO are a common ground to build an industry standard between rim, tire and valve manufacturers.

“Those standards should be considered as a baseline for manufacturers and developers where improvements and innovations can arise from. The main intention behind the standards are “barriers" to ensure a safe and functional surrounding that parts in the industry are compatible with each other and ensure safety for end consumers. So yes, Continental agrees with the recommendations from ETRTO”

It’s a similar line from Mavic, with Lethenet telling us that its “...tire instructions are based on the official ETRTO recommendations”.

Bicycle wheel manufacturers conduct their own in-house testing on tire compatibility, and the ETRTO does not. This means that all regulations are always made retrospectively, much like UCI guidelines.

“While the new compatibility table removes the combinations that Zipp advocates for,” comments Zipp in its official statement “the current table will move to a section of the ETRTO norm called PSD, the Previous Standard Data, demonstrating that those combinations are safe and can still be used”.

Blake from Hunt helpfully puts it all into perspective “We’ve never seen an issue of derailment with 25mm [internal] rims and 25mm tires that wasn’t caused from over inflating of the tyre” he reassures us.

“My concern is however, that the proverbial can is being kicked down the road," he says. Tire brands will be the ones that evolve to adhere to the new standards, and then compatibility with existing rims will eventually become an issue."

"So while it is fine to run the older standard now, you’ll probably struggle to get a 28mm tire that’s still compatible with a 25mm internal hookless rim in a couple of years. It’s the consumer who will be left out of pocket ”.

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C36
Posts: 2471
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:24 am

by C36

Many brands are by internal regulation required to design wheels / tires that are following the ETRTO std. In some cases the parent company is forcing them to do so to protect from liability issues.
I had extensive discussion with Michelin and Continental people and they cant get their s..t together. Their customer services says they stick to ETRTO... but the actually published regulation (guess the changes are not yet made public and I understood the big changes will be on the 2024 version). Now talking to Engineers, they said they won't ever recoment to use 28mm on 25mm rims (both brands) but that is clearly not cascaded yet down to Customer services...

To the question but your 28mm tire is way wider than nominal 28mm tires so can I treat it as a 29? they couldn't provide a reasonable answer and that adds to the complexity.

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wheelsONfire
Posts: 6283
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:15 am
Location: NorthEU

by wheelsONfire

When Stans No tubes released Avion (21mm internal), 25mm tire with inner tube, 28mm tubeless was the narrowest tires allowed.
They were probably among the first with wide internal rims and hookless. Since then it seems rims are getting wider and wider.
Personally, i wouldn't go for any rim without hooks if i bought tubeless, because you still might want to use a wheelset with tube.
The rims should handle 100 psi if you want to ride with inner tubes. Not that many will run 100 psi, but the rims should handle it.
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.

wickedstealthy
Posts: 427
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2021 3:16 pm

by wickedstealthy

:welcome:
C36 wrote:
Mon Jun 12, 2023 9:53 pm
Many brands are by internal regulation required to design wheels / tires that are following the ETRTO std. In some cases the parent company is forcing them to do so to protect from liability issues.
I had extensive discussion with Michelin and Continental people and they cant get their s..t together. Their customer services says they stick to ETRTO... but the actually published regulation (guess the changes are not yet made public and I understood the big changes will be on the 2024 version). Now talking to Engineers, they said they won't ever recoment to use 28mm on 25mm rims (both brands) but that is clearly not cascaded yet down to Customer services...

To the question but your 28mm tire is way wider than nominal 28mm tires so can I treat it as a 29? they couldn't provide a reasonable answer and that adds to the complexity.
Made several times a request for info on recommendations and hardly got information. Only Schwalbe seems to be responsive. This whole stuff is a pure shit show and we as customers pay way too much money for this *f##k* up.
I run 26mm on 23mm iw dukes and they blow up to 28,6. I compared this to a 28mm ere research ccr clincher and this tire is smaller in both width and height !!! Not by much but at least after some ride they will be equal in width and height not more. At least they are true to size and not something weird.
The gp5000 on the other hand in size 25mm runs very small and I would not fit it on a 23iw but the gp5000 28mm runs extremely wide even on a 21iw it goes to +30mm
So as a customer this is completely bullshit and nobody sticks to any std it seems. A 25mm should run 25 on a 19c and not a mm more. A 28mm should run 28mm on a 19c rim now etc
Also those Pirelli's are blowing up bigger then they should but at least it's not as bad as those nee michelin and Continental tires
I don't care what reasoning is behind all this but if they would really stick to a std then this all would be less of an issue.
The rim manufacturers can design wheels with a target in mind (iw and ow). Now it's all guessing and what works today likely won't work tomorrow

RadB
Posts: 229
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2020 3:24 am

by RadB

I got a hookless wheelset on a new bike, ordered 25s by mistake, am just waiting for the 28s to arrive any day. This has confirmed my deep seated mistrust of hookless and its dependencies (and my life) on everyone in the associated industries playing along to a set of rules that don't exist.

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