Best mid-profile carbon tubeless wheelset for ride quality?

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WonderSausage
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by WonderSausage

Help me salvage a terrible-riding bike! I just built a new bike (frameset brand redacted to avoid derailing the conversation) as a backup to my S-Works Tarmac, and the ride quality is terrible. It's using a pair of Campy Bora One 50 Disc which had had good ride quality on the Tarmac but the new frameset is so damn stiff it feels like I'm literally riding on bare rims with no tires. The Boras have 25c Michelin Power Cup tubed @ 102/105psi (77kg) and the ride is so rough that just going to 28s wouldn't be enough to fix it. The Boras won't do tubeless and are only 17mm internal.

To fix this, I think I need to get both a smoother-riding wheelset and go 28c tubeless. The frame limit is 30mm and on a modern wide tubeless wheelset a 28c will be 28-30c.

Looking for mid profile (35-45), hooked disc tubeless, no carbon spokes. Suggestions appreciated, preferably from people who have been in a similar situation, i.e. fixed a bad-riding bike with a smooth wheelset, not just "I have x and it rides fine." Like I said, the Boras were fine too, on a reasonable riding frameset.

I do have a set of Roval C 38 on my gravel bike that I could move over, but at least one review said they are hard riding (the gravel bike is Ti so I wouldn't notice).

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CampagYOLO
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by CampagYOLO

I'd start by dropping 20psi out of each of your tyres. That could make more difference than new wheels and is an awful lot cheaper!

The SRAM tyre pressure guide backs me up on this:

https://axs.sram.com/guides/tire/pressure

Singular
Posts: 537
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by Singular

WonderSausage wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 2:43 am
Help me salvage a terrible-riding bike! I just built a new bike (frameset brand redacted to avoid derailing the conversation) as a backup to my S-Works Tarmac, and the ride quality is terrible. It's using a pair of Campy Bora One 50 Disc which had had good ride quality on the Tarmac but the new frameset is so damn stiff it feels like I'm literally riding on bare rims with no tires. The Boras have 25c Michelin Power Cup tubed @ 102/105psi (77kg) and the ride is so rough that just going to 28s wouldn't be enough to fix it. The Boras won't do tubeless and are only 17mm internal.

To fix this, I think I need to get both a smoother-riding wheelset and go 28c tubeless. The frame limit is 30mm and on a modern wide tubeless wheelset a 28c will be 28-30c.

Looking for mid profile (35-45), hooked disc tubeless, no carbon spokes. Suggestions appreciated, preferably from people who have been in a similar situation, i.e. fixed a bad-riding bike with a smooth wheelset, not just "I have x and it rides fine." Like I said, the Boras were fine too, on a reasonable riding frameset.

I do have a set of Roval C 38 on my gravel bike that I could move over, but at least one review said they are hard riding (the gravel bike is Ti so I wouldn't notice).
That's really high pressure - run your numbers through for example the Silca pressure calculator (and keep in mind, use actual width - I recall that the Power Cup is a bit oversized), and I guess you will get a reduction of approx 20 psi (and the SIlca calculator gives maximum pressure, not recommended), just like CampagYOLO says.

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WonderSausage
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by WonderSausage

I've measured the tire deflection and that's the correct PSI for me plus kit and backpack. It was also the PSI I ran on the Tarmac which rode fine. NOTE this is a 17mm internal width rim, the PSI would be lower if on a 19-21. Most of those PSI tables are for wider rims.

I run tubeless at 75psi/28 and 85psi/25

CampagYOLO
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by CampagYOLO

WonderSausage wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 8:45 am
I've measured the tire deflection and that's the correct PSI for me plus kit and backpack. It was also the PSI I ran on the Tarmac which rode fine. NOTE this is a 17mm internal width rim, the PSI would be lower if on a 19-21. Most of those PSI tables are for wider rims.

I run tubeless at 75psi/28 and 85psi/25
You clearly didn't look at the link I posted but it sounds like you know better than Silca and SRAM anyway.

mrlobber
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by mrlobber

WonderSausage wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 8:45 am
I've measured the tire deflection and that's the correct PSI for me plus kit and backpack. It was also the PSI I ran on the Tarmac which rode fine. NOTE this is a 17mm internal width rim, the PSI would be lower if on a 19-21. Most of those PSI tables are for wider rims.
Even if "most are", some clearly aren't. Silca tables are for WAM (width-as-measured) tyres, so they're internal-width independent for all reasonable tyre-rim combinations.
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rudye9mr
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by rudye9mr

borrow a wheelset with the widest internal rim width (e.g. 21mm) and a 28/30mm external width, pair with a cotton casing based tyre, optimize pressures and see if it helps the frame.

AJS914
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by AJS914

WonderSausage wrote:
Mon May 08, 2023 2:43 am
The Boras have 25c Michelin Power Cup tubed @ 102/105psi (77kg) and the ride is so rough that just going to 28s wouldn't be enough to fix it. The Boras won't do tubeless and are only 17mm internal.
I used to ride these pressures and slowly lowered them over the years with no ill effects. Even with tubes I was riding 80/85psi recently. I went tubeless (25mm GP5000 TLs) and can run them a tiny bit lower but not by much. At least with 25mm tires, going tubeless doesn't allow you to go straight to 60psi.

I would just put some 28mm tires on the current wheels and see how it rides.

What frame did you buy?
Last edited by AJS914 on Sun Jul 02, 2023 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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nickf
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by nickf

Tire pressure. I was around 79kg running 25c tires at 90psi. I'm now 74kg running 28c and at 76/79psi.

Mocs123
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by Mocs123

I'd try something wider - at least 21mm internal and even 23mm internal if you find the right wheel. I run 25mm GP5000's with latex tubes on a 23mm internal rim and they measure about 29.5mm - I run them at 80psi rear and 78psi front and I'm about your weight. Most of your comfort is going to come from lower tire pressures and wider rims will allow you to do that.

Off the top of my head I'd suggest the Light Bicycle AR56 if you want budget and Bontrager RSL51 if you want high end.
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2020 Trek Emonda SLR-7 Disc - 6.86kg
2023 Specialized SL7 - 7.18kg

Singular
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by Singular

Neither wider rims nor wider tyres is going to make any difference if OP keeps the same level of inflation (even adjusted to volume/width) - it will still ride bonejarringly hard.

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AscentBikes
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by AscentBikes

I think you'll be able to mitigate the effects of your frame with a wider tire and lower pressures, but most wheels these days are designed for 28mm tires max, and will suffer from aerodynamic penalties if you go wider.

Lowering the pressure does help, but two things to keep in mind:
1) With a narrow internal width, handling in corners will be sketchy at low pressures, as the tire will want to fold in on itself.
2) With narrow tires, you run a greater risk of pinch flats or rim strikes as there isn't enough volume to absorb the bigger bumps.

I personally run my Polaris 42 with 32mm GP5000 tires (80kg weight, 60psi) and they roll nicely while being comfortable.
The rims are optimized for 28-32mm tires, and there is no aerodynamic penalty in using 32mm vs 28mm.
They have a 23mm internal width, hooked, and use CX Ray steel spokes.
Peak Torque has reviewed them here. He is about 90kg, and runs them at 50(!) psi because apparently British roads are bad.
Have a look:

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Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

I don't believe a compliant (flexy) wheel is the correct approach to your problem - can make for sketchy, unpredictable handling. Beyond appropriate tire pressure, consider saddle, seatpost, handlebar, footbeds, etc. Really anything other than the wheels that can be made more flexible or more padded will help. The right handlebars can transform a harsh ride.

The message is clear - it's about tire pressure. At your weight, 30mm WAM tubeless is fine at 65psi, even under hard cornering. True, requires wide rims - 21 - 24mm internal.
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AscentBikes
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by AscentBikes

Partially agree. That being said, if your wheels are too stiff (like super deep, with massive carbon spokes) then you end up having to drop the tire pressure more to get the same compliance - then you get issues like squirrelly handling and higher rolling resistance. IMO it's about balancing the stiffness of each element in the chain.

-QX
Mr.Gib wrote:
Tue May 09, 2023 4:41 am
I don't believe a compliant (flexy) wheel is the correct approach to your problem - can make for sketchy, unpredictable handling. Beyond appropriate tire pressure, consider saddle, seatpost, handlebar, footbeds, etc. Really anything other than the wheels that can be made more flexible or more padded will help. The right handlebars can transform a harsh ride.

The message is clear - it's about tire pressure. At your weight, 30mm WAM tubeless is fine at 65psi, even under hard cornering. True, requires wide rims - 21 - 24mm internal.

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apr46
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by apr46

Valid point QX, but if you have a flexy wheel and a comparatively "stiff" tire that can make the bike not just feel unresponsive but down right unpredictable. In my opinion its a far worse combination to deal with than a stiff wheel and low PSI.

I agree with @mrgib. If you were to take a flexy wheel like my gravel set with Berd spokes and put in 100 psi (or at my weight on 32mm tires something like 65psi) the wheels can make the bike feel like its stepping out rather than holding the line even when its fine.

In my opinion, playing with the PSI until the ride feels right and not squirelly is the right way to go. I would start by going down 20psi like the calculators suggest, if it feels squirelly go up in 5 psi increments until it feels better.

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