New 1255g 45mm Mavic Cosmic Ultimate

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wickedstealthy
Posts: 427
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2021 3:16 pm

by wickedstealthy

Steadimann wrote:
Sat Feb 04, 2023 8:38 am
You can get exremely light, but no wheels offer proper weight support and their stiffness is another question. I have been thinking of buying Duke Ultras, but weight is limited to 90kg, as I weight 78 + bike it gets really on the edge. Mavic is rated up to 120kg + Carbon spoke and rim to rim stiffness is amazing. I tried Lighweight wheels - they are STIFF. Yes, riding flats you don't need that but climbing up the hill ,every stroke feels like a push unlike with traditional spoke wheels. Also, there super light hubs etc which can help you go down in weight, but what is their reliability...
I'm around 72kg and no issue at all. The wheels are quite compliant and they know their shit. Just take the 56mm height and they are above 100kg.
I'm riding 48/56mm and I find them awesome. Most frames have also a weight limit still you see many many guys of 90kg and more ride those frames :D Thats the annoying part lots of stuff needs to cover a wide range of weights going from 50kg ride to 100kg rider so they take the safe route

by Weenie


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User avatar
C36
Posts: 2471
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:24 am

by C36

AscentBikes wrote:
Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:43 am
Polaris 42 is about 380g, the Raw rims are about 360-365g or so.

Possible build is:
Polaris 42 Raw x2: 360g x2 = 720g
DT 180: 92 + 188g = 280g
Spokes: CX Ray + Alloy Nipples: (4.5 + 0.3) * 48 = 230.4g
Total Estimate: 1230g-1240g without rim tape
Even with the DT 240s, you'd be around 1260-1270g with the raw rims.
No carbon spokes required. Normal CX Rays - reliable, easily replaceable.
With Carbon-Ti hubs you can save 10 grams vs DT180
With Extralite Hubs you can save 68 grams vs DT180
It would be a nice build but I would be extremely surprised to achieve the same stiffness level. I have seen 100s of lab data and just not possible (like none of the 280 wheels I have plotted are there).
Latest attempt for a stiff wheel I saw was a 410g reinforced (std was 380g) 40mm rim with 28 rear CX-Sprint on Carbon Ti... reaching 46N/mm for 765g (rear).
Pyotrump wrote:
Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:37 am
You need to add 20g for rim tapes. Mavic comes without access holes. Acsent may have the same option? IDK...
But adding 20g does not change that Mavic is not competitive anymore. Sad.
To me what they achived is to score top mark in 4 dimensions, weight; inertia, aero and stiffness. Lighter, we can make sub 700g pair of wheels. Look the OneK example, carbon 36mm light rim, carbon spokes, sub 950g... missing 1/4 of the stiffness, that's a lot!

Cadex (or other brands who use carbon spokes properly) can get close or even slightly better for stiffness; and stay within 100g of the Ultimates. no doubt we will see more of those example in the future; Hyper is there (but terrible hub reliability), farsport come close, BTLOS will offer something similar...

wickedstealthy wrote:
Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:46 pm
My duke 48/56 with cx ray and tactic hubs including tactic hubs 1270.
Taking the new 56/56 Baccara X using Briks carbon spokes you end up at 1200 without rimtape.
But again from a stiffness point of view you are nowhere near; Those numbers are very low in absolute compared to other data I published.

Image

Regarding Briks spokes, I am not a fan of the Ti insert bonded on the inside of the spoke, it has a limited bonding area and the carbon fiber near the bond is exposed and their shape is not aero.

copying from what I posted here viewtopic.php?f=132&t=171883, making light and stiff is not achieved by many
Image


LuigiG
Posts: 87
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2022 10:11 pm

by LuigiG

DELETED
Last edited by LuigiG on Sun Mar 24, 2024 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
AscentBikes
in the industry
Posts: 72
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2022 6:33 am
Contact:

by AscentBikes

Hmm, the question is, do you really want your wheel to be that stiff?
I know the trend is for pedaling stiffness and all, but if the roads are rougher, a little lateral and vertical compliance really helps maintain traction and comfort.
The funny thing is, if the rim and spokes are too stiff, people end up dropping the tire pressures to compensate. This causes additional rolling resistance and causes overall lower efficiency. On some rims, cornering with low-pressure tires can become iffy too.

Peak Torque describes it best here (watch 7:47 onward):


QX
C36 wrote:
Sat Feb 04, 2023 11:53 pm
AscentBikes wrote:
Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:43 am
Polaris 42 is about 380g, the Raw rims are about 360-365g or so.

Possible build is:
Polaris 42 Raw x2: 360g x2 = 720g
DT 180: 92 + 188g = 280g
Spokes: CX Ray + Alloy Nipples: (4.5 + 0.3) * 48 = 230.4g
Total Estimate: 1230g-1240g without rim tape
Even with the DT 240s, you'd be around 1260-1270g with the raw rims.
No carbon spokes required. Normal CX Rays - reliable, easily replaceable.
With Carbon-Ti hubs you can save 10 grams vs DT180
With Extralite Hubs you can save 68 grams vs DT180
It would be a nice build but I would be extremely surprised to achieve the same stiffness level. I have seen 100s of lab data and just not possible (like none of the 280 wheels I have plotted are there).
Latest attempt for a stiff wheel I saw was a 410g reinforced (std was 380g) 40mm rim with 28 rear CX-Sprint on Carbon Ti... reaching 46N/mm for 765g (rear).
Pyotrump wrote:
Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:37 am
You need to add 20g for rim tapes. Mavic comes without access holes. Acsent may have the same option? IDK...
But adding 20g does not change that Mavic is not competitive anymore. Sad.
To me what they achived is to score top mark in 4 dimensions, weight; inertia, aero and stiffness. Lighter, we can make sub 700g pair of wheels. Look the OneK example, carbon 36mm light rim, carbon spokes, sub 950g... missing 1/4 of the stiffness, that's a lot!

Cadex (or other brands who use carbon spokes properly) can get close or even slightly better for stiffness; and stay within 100g of the Ultimates. no doubt we will see more of those example in the future; Hyper is there (but terrible hub reliability), farsport come close, BTLOS will offer something similar...

wickedstealthy wrote:
Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:46 pm
My duke 48/56 with cx ray and tactic hubs including tactic hubs 1270.
Taking the new 56/56 Baccara X using Briks carbon spokes you end up at 1200 without rimtape.
But again from a stiffness point of view you are nowhere near; Those numbers are very low in absolute compared to other data I published.

Image

Regarding Briks spokes, I am not a fan of the Ti insert bonded on the inside of the spoke, it has a limited bonding area and the carbon fiber near the bond is exposed and their shape is not aero.

copying from what I posted here viewtopic.php?f=132&t=171883, making light and stiff is not achieved by many
Image

jlok
Posts: 2400
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am

by jlok

AscentBikes wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 3:02 am
Hmm, the question is, do you really want your wheel to be that stiff?
I know the trend is for pedaling stiffness and all, but if the roads are rougher, a little lateral and vertical compliance really helps maintain traction and comfort.
The funny thing is, if the rim and spokes are too stiff, people end up dropping the tire pressures to compensate. This causes additional rolling resistance and causes overall lower efficiency. On some rims, cornering with low-pressure tires can become iffy too.

Peak Torque describes it best here (watch 7:47 onward):


QX
C36 wrote:
Sat Feb 04, 2023 11:53 pm
AscentBikes wrote:
Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:43 am
Polaris 42 is about 380g, the Raw rims are about 360-365g or so.

Possible build is:
Polaris 42 Raw x2: 360g x2 = 720g
DT 180: 92 + 188g = 280g
Spokes: CX Ray + Alloy Nipples: (4.5 + 0.3) * 48 = 230.4g
Total Estimate: 1230g-1240g without rim tape
Even with the DT 240s, you'd be around 1260-1270g with the raw rims.
No carbon spokes required. Normal CX Rays - reliable, easily replaceable.
With Carbon-Ti hubs you can save 10 grams vs DT180
With Extralite Hubs you can save 68 grams vs DT180
It would be a nice build but I would be extremely surprised to achieve the same stiffness level. I have seen 100s of lab data and just not possible (like none of the 280 wheels I have plotted are there).
Latest attempt for a stiff wheel I saw was a 410g reinforced (std was 380g) 40mm rim with 28 rear CX-Sprint on Carbon Ti... reaching 46N/mm for 765g (rear).
Pyotrump wrote:
Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:37 am
You need to add 20g for rim tapes. Mavic comes without access holes. Acsent may have the same option? IDK...
But adding 20g does not change that Mavic is not competitive anymore. Sad.
To me what they achived is to score top mark in 4 dimensions, weight; inertia, aero and stiffness. Lighter, we can make sub 700g pair of wheels. Look the OneK example, carbon 36mm light rim, carbon spokes, sub 950g... missing 1/4 of the stiffness, that's a lot!

Cadex (or other brands who use carbon spokes properly) can get close or even slightly better for stiffness; and stay within 100g of the Ultimates. no doubt we will see more of those example in the future; Hyper is there (but terrible hub reliability), farsport come close, BTLOS will offer something similar...

wickedstealthy wrote:
Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:46 pm
My duke 48/56 with cx ray and tactic hubs including tactic hubs 1270.
Taking the new 56/56 Baccara X using Briks carbon spokes you end up at 1200 without rimtape.
But again from a stiffness point of view you are nowhere near; Those numbers are very low in absolute compared to other data I published.

Image

Regarding Briks spokes, I am not a fan of the Ti insert bonded on the inside of the spoke, it has a limited bonding area and the carbon fiber near the bond is exposed and their shape is not aero.

copying from what I posted here viewtopic.php?f=132&t=171883, making light and stiff is not achieved by many
Image
That's exactly the situation of going extreme, say WW. Do you really want a 4kg noodle bike to ride? Same to the stiffness. If one is to focus on climbing and doesn't mind the rough way to the entrance of the climb, by all means go for the stiffness.

N+1 wheelset... let's get all kinds of wheels!
Rikulau V9 DB Custom < BMC TM02 < Litespeed T1sl Disc < Giant Propel Advanced SL Disc 1 < Propel Adv < TCR Adv SL Disc < KTM Revelator Sky < CAAD 12 Disc < Domane S Disc < Alize < CAAD 10

User avatar
C36
Posts: 2471
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:24 am

by C36

AscentBikes wrote:
Tue Feb 07, 2023 3:02 am
Hmm, the question is, do you really want your wheel to be that stiff?
I know the trend is for pedaling stiffness and all, but if the roads are rougher, a little lateral and vertical compliance really helps maintain traction and comfort.
The funny thing is, if the rim and spokes are too stiff, people end up dropping the tire pressures to compensate. This causes additional rolling resistance and causes overall lower efficiency. On some rims, cornering with low-pressure tires can become iffy too.

Peak Torque describes it best here (watch 7:47 onward):
It is a valid question, few take son this:
- Overall lateral wheel stiffness does provide significant performance difference in key moments, but I would say people usually lack the ability to test stiff wheels to see the difference. Now difference is highlighted out of the saddle rather than steady state seated. Worth to notice the plateau performance is around 55-60N/mm, no real differences have been measured above this.
- 47N/mm is a "high" number but not a crazy high number: Previous generations have been measured 56, Corima MCC are 52 to 60 depending on versions, R-sys or Hyperon used in mountain were 54 and 53N/mm (not to mention Rev-X SS that were closer from 70). I need to plot average stiffness in last 15 years and you will see a big drop.
- Lateral stiffness and vertical compliance have a link but it's not a direct one. Not having enough measure point, there are some speculations here: rim profile has an impact, spoke count has an impact, crossed spokes have the reputation to generate more compliant rides than radial ones (that will also give more tortional stiffness). Wheels vertical stiffness and tire spring rate must have a factor 100 and with the wider acceptance that dropping pressure lower impedance losses while improving comfort, we gained a LOT on this front.

LuigiG
Posts: 87
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2022 10:11 pm

by LuigiG

DELETED
Last edited by LuigiG on Sun Mar 24, 2024 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

RDY
Posts: 2354
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:31 pm

by RDY

Briks keeps being mentioned ... I assume Brisk? I thought they were claimed to be the best as they have the kevlar reinforcement.

What do people think about the carbon spokes Nextie are using? They now have a full write-up on their page and detailed specs and pictures.

https://www.nextie.com/carbon-bicycle-s ... ro-NXTCS03

extrusionedwin
Posts: 124
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2021 3:25 am

by extrusionedwin

where can I get this excel file, I can update some chineses wheels data information tks

S6ED
Posts: 334
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:22 pm

by S6ED

Maddie wrote:
Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:45 am
My Farsport Feders with RD230 hubs, 45mm deep, 28mm wide, no access holes: 1231g.

Gesendet von meinem SM-G973U1 mit Tapatalk
Are you comparing a wheelset 100% hand made in France (Mavic) with cheap labor chinese wheels (Farsport)?

There's hardly a comparison to be made here.

tiz92
Posts: 190
Joined: Tue May 04, 2021 3:36 pm

by tiz92

S6ED wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:56 pm
Maddie wrote:
Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:45 am
My Farsport Feders with RD230 hubs, 45mm deep, 28mm wide, no access holes: 1231g.

Gesendet von meinem SM-G973U1 mit Tapatalk
Are you comparing a wheelset 100% hand made in France (Mavic) with cheap labor chinese wheels (Farsport)?

There's hardly a comparison to be made here.
If the performance is similar and the price is just 1/5 of the Mavic its an unfair comparison yes :D

S6ED
Posts: 334
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2019 1:22 pm

by S6ED

tiz92 wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2023 6:41 am
S6ED wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:56 pm
Maddie wrote:
Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:45 am
My Farsport Feders with RD230 hubs, 45mm deep, 28mm wide, no access holes: 1231g.

Gesendet von meinem SM-G973U1 mit Tapatalk
Are you comparing a wheelset 100% hand made in France (Mavic) with cheap labor chinese wheels (Farsport)?

There's hardly a comparison to be made here.
If the performance is similar and the price is just 1/5 of the Mavic its an unfair comparison yes :D
Ignorance is bliss.

Steve Curtis
Posts: 1314
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:20 pm
Location: Hampshire UK, Dublin Ireland and Geneva Switzerland.

by Steve Curtis

S6ED wrote:
Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:56 pm
Maddie wrote:
Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:45 am
My Farsport Feders with RD230 hubs, 45mm deep, 28mm wide, no access holes: 1231g.

Gesendet von meinem SM-G973U1 mit Tapatalk
Are you comparing a wheelset 100% hand made in France (Mavic) with cheap labor chinese wheels (Farsport)?

There's hardly a comparison to be made here.
I agree with you. I don't think a Mavic has'nt made a genuine leading wheel for 15 years or more.
They're a bit like Maglite - once great, but now trading on past glory with inferior products at inflated prices.

Mavic did produce some great cycling clothing but that's about it.
Last edited by Steve Curtis on Thu Jun 08, 2023 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



IchDien
Posts: 674
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:23 am
Location: Veneto

by IchDien

^

Weren't the CXR60 / CXR80 the fastest wheels made?

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