Weight Weenies

It was like forever than Tour did a proper high-end wheel test. I highly recomend to purchase it to support the magazine -->https://www.delius-klasing.de/tour-digital (5e for 1, 60 for a year and have access to several years of previous publication)
We have a Carbon Spoked special edition: the old and new Cadex, the Lighwegith and Cosmic Ultimate, Hunt, the special One-K, NewMen.
What are the key points (more to come with more time):

- After many years of lower stiffness numbers linked to extensive usage of very thin SS spokes (yes CX-ray, talking about you), in the low 40N/mm at the rear wheel, CF spokes allow to reach the 50s and for those who had the opportunity to test a really stiff wheel... that changes the face of how your bike rides.

- Really happy to see Mavic back at the top, half of LW price, within 3W of the fastest (219-216w), as stiff as 1700g wheels (DT ARC62) with 1250g weight and lifetime waranty. Rim width is 28mm in case someone wonder

- It was the case of previous wheels but clearly show that Hunt doesn't understand the wheel mechanics, they are always at the very bottom of the stiffness range. trying to save few grams using carbon spokes is totally missing the point if it's to be that flexible

- One-K... Super light (947g) and surprisingly aero with their bulky spokes heads, but shifting away from CF spokes to something like the Spinergy PBO, comes with noodle stiffness.

- Cadex, new wider spokes do their job with a stiffness jumping from 44nM to 49

- LW remains stiffness champions (something I though dropped on their last rim-brake versions) but with 24mm rims, it will impact aero and handling under x-wind (somehow they are not rated like this... but there is no number and Tour always had a tendency to favor german brands with few twists).

Edit : updated snapshot fixing some of the errors mentioned by ww members. Ranked by weight, it shows the difficulties to be light and stiff!

I feel like mavic has some interesting wheels but for some reason nobody is interested in them, like at all.

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C36 wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 20, 2023 4:08 pm

It was like forever than Tour did a proper high-end wheel test. I highly recomend to purchase it to support the magazine -->https://www.delius-klasing.de/tour-digital (5e for 1, 60 for a year and have access to several years of previous publication)

I'm tempted to subscribe to the digital mag. I used to buy it back when they had an English version. Is the process for machine translating the articles easy or convoluted? Can it be done from an iPhone?

Very impressive overall numbers for the Cadex 50 Ultras.

Each of the Zipp wheels look pretty good as well, especially if the NSWs provide the added benefit of crosswind stability. This is in stark contrast to some likely conjured/fake results from an infamous YouTuber.

Really interesting stuff! I have a set of 50mm deep road / gravel wheels with Berd Spokes and I dont love the way they feel with 28m road tires mounted when descending. There just isnt a lot of lateral stiffness. I wonder if the One-K wheels feel the same.

Those Berd spokes though feel brilliant on gravel with some wider tires.

spartacus wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 20, 2023 4:29 pm

I feel like mavic has some interesting wheels but for some reason nobody is interested in them, like at all.

When I look at them from an engineering point of view, Mavic displays (by quite a margin) probably the best understanding of the wheel mechanics.

Their work on rims, spokes, spokes-rims interactions, how spoke tension evolve with tubeless... are far superior to 90% of the other brands... but that's totally inaudible to the mass. I recall a tech interview where they explained all the differences between road and gravel, quite detailed, between the load cycles, the tension drops, how torque peaks were different on lower gears etc... and 90% of the comments was "that's marketing BS" when it was totally factual (and validating by their torture-test-jigs), it was just too complicated for the masses to understand and then see value and to me this is their problem. Roval doesn't have to make much effort to sell wheels, they come with their bikes, Bontrager the same...

Now, they have been hit by the wider-rim trend where they felt behind, their proprietary exclusive concept backfired when availability became a problem or just praising more "simplicity" over "technical optimal", then the shit-show from their owners that messed-them up (mean at one point, Mavic was keeping the entire Salomon ski and outdoor division alive) and finally the fact that many bike brands have integrated their wheels (Bontrager, Roval, Knot...) commoditizing the wheel as an equipment and communicating on simple messages: aero, wide rims... simple things, not the complexity of spokes stability, lateral and tortional stiffness... on their last Ultimate Tubeless, if I recall properly the spokes doubled in strength to preserve the wheel stiffness once you have inflated your TL tires, that compresses the rim... I don't recall any other brand taking this path.

my 2 cts

TobinHatesYou wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:23 pm

Each of the Zipp wheels look pretty good as well, especially if the NSWs provide the added benefit of crosswind stability. This is in stark contrast to some likely conjured/fake results from an infamous YouTuber.

We discussed this fewtimes, but to me they are way to flexible, (only the 454 would be acceptable, by the minimal margin) and the 5 bar limit is a real problem if you ride on good roads where your optimal (taking both rolling loss and impedance losses) is quite above this (using Silca Cal, my optimal would be 6.8 in 25 and 5.7 with 28s).

50 Ultra do look great, but then the Hyper look even better (I don't have 2023 data), lighter, as stiff, but too narrow for your road-conditions.

C36 wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:55 pm

spartacus wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 20, 2023 4:29 pm

I feel like mavic has some interesting wheels but for some reason nobody is interested in them, like at all.

When I look at them from an engineering point of view, Mavic display (by quite a margin) probably the best understanding of the wheel mechanics.

Their work on rims, spokes, spokes-rims interactions, how spoke tension evolve with tubeless... are far superior to 90% of the other brands... but that's totally inaudible to the mass. I recall a tech interview where they explained all the differences between road and gravel, quite detail, between the load cycles, the tension drops, how torque peaks were different on lower gears etc... and 90% of the comments was "that's marketing BS" when it was totally factual (and validating by their torture-test-jigs), it was just too complicated for the masses to understand and then see value and to me this is their problem. Roval doesn't have to make much effort to sell wheels, they come with their bikes, Bontrager the same...

Now, they have been hit by the wider-rim trend where they felt behind (I would put this on the marketing teams), their proprietary exclusive concept backfired when availability became a problem or just prasing more "simplicity" over "technical optimal", then the shit-show from their owners that messed-them up (mean at one point, Mavic was keeping the entire Salomon ski and outdoor division alive) and finally the fact that many bike brands have integrated their wheels (Bontrager, Roval, Knot...) comoditizing the wheel as an equipment and comunicating on simple messages: aero, wide rims... simple things, not the complexity of spokes stability, lateral and tortional stiffness... on their last Ultimate Tubeless, if I recall properly the spokes doubled in strength to preserve the wheel stiffness once you have inflated your TL tires, that compresses the rim... I don't recall any other brand taking this path.

my 2 cts

I agree, their new hubs don't look bad either. As far as companies whose engineering I trust I'm partial to DT swiss but like you said mavic really seems like they know what they're doing but there just aren't reviews or hype out there.

The Campy Bora WTO 45 reads Disc on left/Model & Rim on right Rim/Disc ? In any case no drag #'s

C36 wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 20, 2023 10:06 pm

TobinHatesYou wrote: ↑

Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:23 pm

Each of the Zipp wheels look pretty good as well, especially if the NSWs provide the added benefit of crosswind stability. This is in stark contrast to some likely conjured/fake results from an infamous YouTuber.

We discussed this fewtimes, but to me they are way to flexible, (only the 454 would be acceptable, by the minimal margin) and the 5 bar limit is a real problem if you ride on good roads where your optimal (taking both rolling loss and impedance losses) is quite above this (using Silca Cal, my optimal would be 6.8 in 25 and 5.7 with 28s).

50 Ultra do look great, but then the Hyper look even better (I don't have 2023 data), lighter, as stiff, but too narrow for your road-conditions.

454 I think is acceptable overall, but it should be wider given the hookless pressure limitations. It should have been optimized around a 30mm WAM tire IMO.

As for the Hypers...same problem for my personal biases. Too narrow, so the Cadex is really the wheelset that impressed me most, with the only other two wheelsets piquing my interest being the DT ARC 1100 and Bontrager Aeolus RSL 62. I bet the RSL 51 gives up at most 1.5 watts compared to the 62.

The Hunts having poor stiffness despite utilizing carbon spokes is perplexing. I'd almost suspect the wrong tensions were used by whoever built the wheel...

I sad that we dont have the drag info for the corima mcc dx 47. I'm close to pull the trigger but if its still slow i cant justify the 3k they ask

Aress wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 21, 2023 10:07 am

I sad that we dont have the drag info for the corima mcc dx 47. I'm close to pull the trigger but if its still slow i cant justify the 3k they ask

At 26mm wide, you'd be stuck with 25mm WAM tires for optimal aero drag... in other words you'd probably be looking at 23/24mm labeled tires. For Corima money, I see no reason not too get the Cadex 50 Ultra instead. It's lighter, stiff enough, and surely faster, especially if you want to run >26mm WAM tires.

Hmm I don't see any issues avaible to buy in the tour app. It's just blank... despite having bought issues from them before. Could you please share the use vs drag plot for the wheels?

How is this spreadsheet sorted? It seems generally to be by measured stiffness, but then the Vision Metron, Zipp 303, Shimano 9200 and Fulcrum Speed 40 (among a couple others) seem to be improperly ordered?

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What tire(s) and size(s) were used in this test?