Wheels Lab Tests

Wheels, Tires, Tubes, Tubeless, Tubs, Spokes, Hookless, Hubs, and more!

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The spirit of this board is to compile and organize wheels and tires related discussions.

If a new wheel tech is released, (say for example, TPU tubes, a brand new tire, or a new rim standard), feel free to start the discussion in the popular "Road". Your topic will eventually be moved here!
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C36
Posts: 2471
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:24 am

by C36

rudye9mr wrote:See elite wheels have carbon spokes. Not sure if they sell separately but a review of rim had off centered drillings in rim bed for a better alignment of the carbon spokes.

Might be worth checking the meta for using carbon spokes.

The dyneema/Berd are another option too..
Side note since dyneema is mentioned. It’s a strong (high resistance to traction) but not very stiff (elongate under traction) fiber. Has interesting properties for vibration absorption like in mtb but on our road application the only example I have seen on a lab was a noodle.

by Weenie


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alanyu
Posts: 1504
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:10 pm

by alanyu

Can you label which wheel is tested by which lab?

Unless there are some crossover data with different labs, I wouldn't compare the numbers directly from different source, since the protocal/method can be different. Even with the same protocal/method, the number can be slightly different due to the calibration of the device from different labs.

lemos
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:55 am

by lemos

any chance you can place the spreadsheet on a read-only shared Google Drive, or something? just so we can use it, and play with it?

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C36
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by C36

alanyu wrote:Can you label which wheel is tested by which lab?

Unless there are some crossover data with different labs, I wouldn't compare the numbers directly from different source, since the protocal/method can be different. Even with the same protocal/method, the number can be slightly different due to the calibration of the device from different labs.
The stiffness numbers are comparable. A dozen wheels have been tested on different sources with good match. Usually within 1N/mm. Some questionable sources I have (either web or from manufacturers are not displayed and they do show odd numbers).

On inertia I can’t mix results so when presented they are from the same source. They measure an energie but don’t know the acceleration profile selected so couldn’t find a correlation.

Same goes for aero I only show Tour sources so far.

HBike
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Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2022 8:22 pm

by HBike

Bontrager RSL
Image

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C36
Posts: 2471
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:24 am

by C36

Update with few interesting wheels
- Princeton 3532: great example of the difficulties to be extremely light and preserve reasonable stiffness (the 28 spokes version can only be better and recomended). Worth notice it's slightly flexier than the One-K RD Ultimate and yet 200g heavier.

- Black Inc 5 spokes: often seen as a good option (monoblock frames = stiff, so for wheels should be the same no?) but shows that like 20+ years ago (Mavic 3G), 15 y (Xentis) and now Black inc that it's difficult to make them stiff and reasonably light (and those last ones are likely not very aero either).

- SES 4.5: kind of highlight what I never understood... they have been good from aero standpoint but on the rest, they are very average wheels, not really light, not really stiff.

- 3 heavier mid range wheels, Shimano Ultegra, Bontrager RSL and Hollowgram 35.

Looking forward adding the Hyperon and the latest Syncros and see how they compete with the Ultimate.

Graph after the break
Last edited by C36 on Fri Aug 04, 2023 12:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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C36
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Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:24 am

by C36

First able: absolute numbers
second table: relative performance compared to best in class
New wheels highlighted in blue
Image

Same same but different, for bars-chart fans
Image

Yoln
Posts: 965
Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:26 pm

by Yoln

Is there any ways to have some standard Lightbicycle data (AR45 with CX-ray and dt-240; and the same with carbon spokes)? I have never seen lightbicycle data for lateral stifness and aeroness
Litespeed Gravel Ultimate : https://tinyurl.com/zvxxy8zk
Wilier “Cento Ramato“ : https://tinyurl.com/29vs8vre
#RETIRED# Lynskey “the Do-it-all Helix” 🧬:https://tinyurl.com/bdmb5y24

ichobi
Posts: 1793
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:30 pm

by ichobi

Relatively speaking, what effect do low stiffness wheels have on your riding performance and characteristics? Like less confidence in turning downhill corner? Do they matter much? For example a bb stiffness test anything more than 60n/m doesn’t really give a performance edge. You won’t feel it.

It’s surprising to me that expensive wheels have low relative stiffness compared to the rest of the charts like the enve 4.5 and princeton. I rode good (green) stiffness wheels like the dt 1100 50 and it doesn’t act like a shallow wheels that accelerate well and feel reactive (duh they are still 50mm deep) despite the “good” stiffness. On the other hand the black inc five wheels while not topping the stiffness chart gives me absolute planted feel on the descent - feeling that i cant quantify but i haven’t found this feeling on other wheels either.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Last edited by ichobi on Sun Aug 13, 2023 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jaisen
Posts: 407
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2022 2:01 am

by Jaisen

ichobi wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2023 4:56 pm
Relatively speaking, what effect do low stiffness wheels have on your riding performance and characteristics? Like less confidence in turning downhill corner? Do they matter much? For example a bb stiffness test anything more than 60n/m doesn’t really give a performance edge. You won’t feel it.

It’s surprising to me that expensive wheels have low relative stiffness compared to the rest of the charts like the enve 4.5 and princeton. I rode good (green) stiffness wheels like the dt 1100 50 and it doesn’t act like a shallow wheels that accelerates well and feel reative (duh) despite the “good” stiffness. On the other hand the black inc five wheels while not topping the stiffness chart gives me absolute planted feel on the descent - feeling that i cant quantify but i haven’t found this feeling on other wheels either.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Also what exactly do these stiffness tests measure? Are we talking about torsional, radial, lateral stiffness? Is the number above an average of them somehow? It seems to me if the wheel has high lateral stiffness but isn't rated that highly in radial stiffness that might be a good thing, it will feel less harsh while still performing quite well where it matters.

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C36
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by C36

Yoln wrote:
Thu Aug 10, 2023 4:35 pm
Is there any ways to have some standard Lightbicycle data (AR45 with CX-ray and dt-240; and the same with carbon spokes)? I have never seen lightbicycle data for lateral stifness and aeroness
I am not aware such a data exist. Hunt did a speech in Bikerumors around the benefit of their Carbon spokes (https://bikerumor.com/spotted-hunt-prot ... de-france/) with 6% stiffness despite 16% spokes less, so that could translate to 27% more stiffness all things equal (but cause their SS wheels are really flexy and cut spokes count, their carbon spoked just became "normal").
ichobi wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2023 4:56 pm
Relatively speaking, what effect do low stiffness wheels have on your riding performance and characteristics? Like less confidence in turning downhill corner? Do they matter much? For example a bb stiffness test anything more than 60n/m doesn’t really give a performance edge. You won’t feel it.

It’s surprising to me that expensive wheels have low relative stiffness compared to the rest of the charts like the enve 4.5 and princeton. I rode good (green) stiffness wheels like the dt 1100 50 and it doesn’t act like a shallow wheels that accelerate well and feel reactive (duh they are still 50mm deep) despite the “good” stiffness. On the other hand the black inc five wheels while not topping the stiffness chart gives me absolute planted feel on the descent - feeling that i cant quantify but i haven’t found this feeling on other wheels either.
Low lateral stiffness will impact cornering and performance out of the saddle on two aspects: better efficiency when out of the sadle and higher max power linked to better biomecanical efficiency. On top of my head at 57-60N/mm there was no more measurable differences (and 40 was considered as relatively low).
Now you mention acceleration "feeling". Inertia has this funny that you can feel it wayyyyyyy more than it impacts measurable performance (that on a full 200m acceleration from 0 to top speed translate into 1 or 2 mm of gain), and it will be completely outweighted by stiffness impact.
For the Black Inc Five, this wheel construction use to give a different ride feel. The spokes work in compression and they usually come with higher vertical stiffness .

Yoln
Posts: 965
Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:26 pm

by Yoln

C36 wrote:
Fri Aug 04, 2023 12:19 pm
Update with few interesting wheels
- Princeton 3532: great example of the difficulties to be extremely light and preserve reasonable stiffness (the 28 spokes version can only be better and recomended). Worth notice it's slightly flexier than the One-K RD Ultimate and yet 200g heavier.

- Black Inc 5 spokes: often seen as a good option (monoblock frames = stiff, so for wheels should be the same no?) but shows that like 20+ years ago (Mavic 3G), 15 y (Xentis) and now Black inc that it's difficult to make them stiff and reasonably light (and those last ones are likely not very aero either).

- SES 4.5: kind of highlight what I never understood... they have been good from aero standpoint but on the rest, they are very average wheels, not really light, not really stiff.

- 3 heavier mid range wheels, Shimano Ultegra, Bontrager RSL and Hollowgram 35.

Looking forward adding the Hyperon and the latest Syncros and see how they compete with the Ultimate.

Graph after the break
Do you know which combination of spokes and hub was used for the Princeton 3532?
Litespeed Gravel Ultimate : https://tinyurl.com/zvxxy8zk
Wilier “Cento Ramato“ : https://tinyurl.com/29vs8vre
#RETIRED# Lynskey “the Do-it-all Helix” 🧬:https://tinyurl.com/bdmb5y24

ichobi
Posts: 1793
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:30 pm

by ichobi

Thx c36 for the explanation. Yeah i do agree that in the end “slow” acceleration feeling from hight depth wheel doesn’t meaningfully impact performance all that much but do have high psychological cost.

However, the interesting case to me from these dataset are for the shallow carbon wheels. Do we also conflate low relative weight (12xxg),which equals to quick acceleration (low inertia feeling), with lateral stiffness? I.e they are not measurably stiff but give you the perception of having high stiffness just because they are light?

If this is the case then the low lateral stiffness wheels like the princeton should feel drastically different from wheels like Cadex where it’s both laterally stiff and also very light.

For example i used to ride the roval clx 32 , a generation before the Alpinist clx and clx ii and i can tell they are not that laterally stiff, compared to say a pair of Lightweights. They are not comparably sharp in the corner but they are alright. But they are light so they are easy to spin up. They are fun to ride around. But i could imagine if they are built laterally stiffer they could feel very spritely and “flippable”.

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C36
Posts: 2471
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:24 am

by C36

Yoln wrote:
C36 wrote:
Fri Aug 04, 2023 12:19 pm
Update with few interesting wheels
- Princeton 3532: great example of the difficulties to be extremely light and preserve reasonable stiffness (the 28 spokes version can only be better and recomended). Worth notice it's slightly flexier than the One-K RD Ultimate and yet 200g heavier.

- Black Inc 5 spokes: often seen as a good option (monoblock frames = stiff, so for wheels should be the same no?) but shows that like 20+ years ago (Mavic 3G), 15 y (Xentis) and now Black inc that it's difficult to make them stiff and reasonably light (and those last ones are likely not very aero either).

- SES 4.5: kind of highlight what I never understood... they have been good from aero standpoint but on the rest, they are very average wheels, not really light, not really stiff.

- 3 heavier mid range wheels, Shimano Ultegra, Bontrager RSL and Hollowgram 35.

Looking forward adding the Hyperon and the latest Syncros and see how they compete with the Ultimate.

Graph after the break
Do you know which combination of spokes and hub was used for the Princeton 3532?
24 spokes (need to confirm if CxRay or even a lighter version) and their Tactic hubs.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

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Yoln
Posts: 965
Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:26 pm

by Yoln

Yeah, I would guess by the weight given (1155g) that it's the CX-ray indeed and not the CX-super version.

Still, not too surprising results given it's a 24h with featherlight rims and lightweight spokes.

Given the fairly wide flange distance and pitch circle diameter of the tactic hubs vs their dt-Swiss counterparts, I would expect the dt-240 version to be both heavier and less stiff, no?
Litespeed Gravel Ultimate : https://tinyurl.com/zvxxy8zk
Wilier “Cento Ramato“ : https://tinyurl.com/29vs8vre
#RETIRED# Lynskey “the Do-it-all Helix” 🧬:https://tinyurl.com/bdmb5y24

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