2023: Going back to Clinchers-> Best Tire?

Wheels, Tires, Tubes, Tubeless, Tubs, Spokes, Hookless, Hubs, and more!

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The spirit of this board is to compile and organize wheels and tires related discussions.

If a new wheel tech is released, (say for example, TPU tubes, a brand new tire, or a new rim standard), feel free to start the discussion in the popular "Road". Your topic will eventually be moved here!
robertbb
Posts: 2179
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:35 am

by robertbb

I'm not convinced on the RR data for the Pzero Race clincher. It may be infantecimally slower (the previous gen Pzero Road had publicised issues with wet grip, and I suspect Pirelli overcompensated on the new Pzero Race to make it slightly grippier).

I have a set of the Pzero Race clincher in 30's (which measure 29 on a 19c rim). Excellent tyre - feel great, well made, good shape, don't "feel" slow at all, no punctures, wearing well... I wouldn't rule them out unless that rolling resistance data messes with your head.

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Vuong05
Posts: 284
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:52 am

by Vuong05

Another vote for TC in 26's or the 28c Hell of the North version. Paired with latex tubes, and the ride feel is unmatched. Fast, grippy and sublimed road feel.... Durability is the main drawback with TC. I get at most 3000km out of a set of TC. On GP5K clinchers, I can easily get 5000-7500 km on a set, and still have life left in them.
Current Stable. Evo (Storm Trooper) : 5.39kg | Alchemy Eros : Heavy (7.25kg) I Specialized Allez Sprint 2022 : Heavy (7.62kg)

ichobi
Posts: 1793
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:30 pm

by ichobi

Of all the dozens tires i have tried in the past years - all tubeless, no single combination have surpassed the ride feel of turbo cotton with latex tube. (And this is also most likely one of the fastest rolling resistance pairing you can get for clinchers, which will also rival some of the fastest tl tires, barring the tt iterations). The closest feel wise was the schwalbe pro one tt - but these are perilously thin.

I am enticed to try the t2/t5 although they seems to be off nylon construction. I will also probably go back to clinchers for the same reason as OP. Next combo will probably be 26mm tc front, 28mm tc hell of the north back, paired them with silca latex tube.

I do value ride feel over a lot of other factors. Life is too short to ride non-supple tire casing. I find the comfort you get from tubeless is quite different from cotton casing + latex tube. They absorb bumps well, yes, but a lot more muted. The tc / latex combo have a very nice road feel/feedback yet remain nicely subdued from vibration. The vittoria corsa + latex dont feel as nice but close though.


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GaBa
Posts: 322
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2014 6:01 pm

by GaBa

Wonder what new Corsa PRO will bring. Otherwise I might try TC as well instead of Corsa G+ II. I ran it with Tubolito last season and am also planning on trying latex tubes this season. I am also ready to trade some W in RR for ride comfort and road feel. I liked this aspect on Corsas G+ already but it is also true that those were the only tires I've been running for past couple of seasons. At the moment I use Rubino for winter and the difference (to me) is huge. Less grip, tire feels stiffer.

froze
Posts: 430
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2010 3:47 am

by froze

Cotton tires are fantastic riding, very sticky which makes them handle like they're on rails, combined with latex tubes and they'll rival cotton tubulars easily. The downside to cotton tires is that they wear out very quickly, you might get 800 miles tops, but they are made for racing so the longevity of the tires is not important in that regard, and of course, the other issue is that cotton tires flat easily as well, something you need to be prepared to handle. For everyday street riding, I think they're too impractical.

If only they made a silk clincher!

robertbb
Posts: 2179
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:35 am

by robertbb

froze wrote:
Tue Jan 17, 2023 10:05 pm
Cotton tires are fantastic riding, very sticky which makes them handle like they're on rails, combined with latex tubes and they'll rival cotton tubulars easily. The downside to cotton tires is that they wear out very quickly, you might get 800 miles tops, but they are made for racing so the longevity of the tires is not important in that regard, and of course, the other issue is that cotton tires flat easily as well, something you need to be prepared to handle. For everyday street riding, I think they're too impractical.

If only they made a silk clincher!
Same goes for latex tubes. Way less reliable than a medium weight butyl.

Hexsense
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Location: USA

by Hexsense

robertbb wrote:
Tue Jan 17, 2023 10:13 pm
Same goes for latex tubes. Way less reliable than a medium weight butyl.
I find it opposite.
Latex tube is so stretchy that it can survive some pinching that any butyl wouldn't.
Butyl also flat faster when anything poke through the tire.
For latex, it's more of the slow leak until it eventually flat, again, because it's so stretchy so it can bend around sharp object quite a lot before getting cut.

robertbb
Posts: 2179
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:35 am

by robertbb

Hexsense wrote:
Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:33 pm
robertbb wrote:
Tue Jan 17, 2023 10:13 pm
Same goes for latex tubes. Way less reliable than a medium weight butyl.
I find it opposite.
Latex tube is so stretchy that it can survive some pinching that any butyl wouldn't.
Butyl also flat faster when anything poke through the tire.
For latex, it's more of the slow leak until it eventually flat, again, because it's so stretchy so it can bend around sharp object quite a lot before getting cut.
I don't doubt your own experiences, that said my experience is otherwise.

I'd say the fact we're both on these forums (and others) suggests we both know how to handle the tubes and do the installations properly.

Could be batch issues, manufacturer differences, wheel/rim/tape differences.... difficult to say.

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Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

froze wrote:
Tue Jan 17, 2023 10:05 pm
Cotton tires are fantastic riding, very sticky which makes them handle like they're on rails, combined with latex tubes and they'll rival cotton tubulars easily. The downside to cotton tires is that they wear out very quickly, you might get 800 miles tops, but they are made for racing so the longevity of the tires is not important in that regard, and of course, the other issue is that cotton tires flat easily as well, something you need to be prepared to handle. For everyday street riding, I think they're too impractical.
hmmm... a couple of points above with which I must take issue.

"800 miles (1300km) tops"? Perhaps this depends on which tire exactly, but to use the very popular Vittoria Corsa as an example, while a big rider can kill a rear tire in about that distance with lots of hard accelerations and aggressive climbing out of the saddle, typical riding should see double that distance. Front tires double that. FWIW I put 2000 km on Vittoria Corsa Controls in Northern Spain this past summer - so loads of steep out of the saddle. Rear is 50% worn, front is only 10 - 20% done. Tires will trade places and be used for another 2000km in the Pyrenees this summer. Not bad for a 77kg rider. To be fair I did once wear out a rear Corsa in about 2000km of climbing.

"cotton tires flat easily"? Again that depends on the tire, and again, to use the Vittoria as a benchmark, the level of puncture protection is adequate enough to eliminate it as an obstacle to its use in most situations. Yes there are certain regions with certain types of debris on the roads that can be tougher on the Vittoria as compared to some vulcanized clinchers, but in my experience those situations are the exception, not the rule. You could easily make any cotton tire as durable as you want by loading it up with protection belts, thick hard tread, etc., but then it wouldn't ride like a cotton tire.

To address the OP question, I share the same sentiment of Ichobi and others. Unless you have some specific reason not to use a supple cloth tire, IMO the superior ride feel is worth the very minor and arguably questionable deficiencies in cost, weight, speed, and/or durability. And most important to me, I have never felt better traction than with the cloth tires I have used. (Vittoria, Rene Herse).
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Indyx
Posts: 97
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:31 am

by Indyx

Good discussion, mature most of us avoid the Tubeless vs. Tube debate.

Based on the feedback, for now here is what I am thinking for a tryout period.

Everyday wheels: Specialized T2/T5 with TPU Inner Tubes
Race Wheels: Specialized TC in 26s with TPU Inner Tubes.

I will skip the GP 5000s non tubeless for now. I've tried them. Also, agree that the Pzero Race NON TLR Wheels probably had a weird test result.

Will report back once I try them.

GaBa
Posts: 322
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2014 6:01 pm

by GaBa

I got much more life than 1300 km from Vittoria Corsa as well. More like 5-6k km. Without any flats.

timmerrr
Posts: 217
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:09 pm

by timmerrr

Been on Veloflex Corsa Evos since they came out. I typically see about 5000 miles a set riding in the midwest of the US (plenty of chipseal) at ~70kg. I only had one flat last year on a training ride and it was a massive piece of glass that would have flatted anything. They roll well, have great ride feel and don't break the bank. Really can't think of a better tire for the money.

The shop that sponsors my team pushes pirelli tires. On the team we had 4 flats in race situations last year, all 4 on pirelli tires, and less than half the team was riding them. I also witnessed a front flat of a Pzero race on a decent on a group ride that caused a crash. Coupled with the horrific wet grip, the Pzero race (and race SL) is a tire I would steer well clear of.
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sevencyclist
Posts: 92
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2021 6:36 am

by sevencyclist

I have Rene Herse Cayuse Pass tires in extralight casing with 26mm. Very smooth and light at 189g and 205g for the tires. Obviously average is light but consistency is not quite fully there with difference of 16 grams. (8-9% variation)

froze
Posts: 430
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2010 3:47 am

by froze

robertbb wrote:
Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:44 pm
Hexsense wrote:
Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:33 pm
robertbb wrote:
Tue Jan 17, 2023 10:13 pm
Same goes for latex tubes. Way less reliable than a medium weight butyl.
I find it opposite.
Latex tube is so stretchy that it can survive some pinching that any butyl wouldn't.
Butyl also flat faster when anything poke through the tire.
For latex, it's more of the slow leak until it eventually flat, again, because it's so stretchy so it can bend around sharp object quite a lot before getting cut.
I don't doubt your own experiences, that said my experience is otherwise.

I'd say the fact we're both on these forums (and others) suggests we both know how to handle the tubes and do the installations properly.

Could be batch issues, manufacturer differences, wheel/rim/tape differences.... difficult to say.
I've ridden on and off latex tubes for years, I would try them for about 3 or 4 years, then quit for about 10 years, go back and repeat the cycle. My experience with latex is that I got more flats not less as advertised by latex makers, every time I went back to using them. Believe me, I wanted those tubes to work, which is why I kept going back, the ride is better than butyl, why would I not want them? Flats, that's why!

I would like to try those new poly tubes but the cost of two is more than I spend for one tire, I can't justify spending that kind of money for a tube. The cheapest TPU tube I could find was some brand called RideNow, probably made in China, and I could not find patches, at least with Tubolito they sell patches. Supposedly from what I read that you have to use patches that come from the brand of tube you have or some other TPU patch won't work, also glueless patches won't last.

robertbb
Posts: 2179
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:35 am

by robertbb

timmerrr wrote:
Wed Jan 18, 2023 6:26 pm


The shop that sponsors my team pushes pirelli tires. On the team we had 4 flats in race situations last year, all 4 on pirelli tires, and less than half the team was riding them. I also witnessed a front flat of a Pzero race on a decent on a group ride that caused a crash. Coupled with the horrific wet grip, the Pzero race (and race SL) is a tire I would steer well clear of.
Just checking - are you referring to Pzero Race or Pzero Road?

Road is the older version and there are well publicised issues with grip (especially wet). As I said above the updated Pzero Race is Pirelli's response to that and I feel they overcompensated so much with this new tyre that the RR data is showing it as a slower tyre than its competitors. I've found grip on these new Race models, in all conditions, to be excellent wet or dry. They're wearing really well and no punctures.

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