Weight Weenies

I do not think there is a test in the world that could convince me when one carbon spoke breaks, the others will be break withing nano seconds of the first one. I am open minded so I will keep watching.

Hexsense wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 27, 2022 6:18 pm

@AscentBikes.
Have you done any wind tunnel test whether the thicker carbon spokes are less aero than the lower profile cx-rays?

Nope, but I expect the difference will be negligible. November Bicycles did a test on round vs bladed spokes, and the difference was maybe 1 watt. It's not really worth quibbling about imho.

https://novemberbicycles.com/blogs/blog ... vs-cx-rays

QX

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AscentBikes wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 28, 2022 5:20 pm

Nope, but I expect the difference will be negligible. November Bicycles did a test on round vs bladed spokes, and the difference was maybe 1 watt. It's not really worth quibbling about imho.

https://novemberbicycles.com/blogs/blog ... vs-cx-rays

QX

All November's wheel testing is/was conducted at the A2 Wind Tunnel. AFAIK, A2 records only translational drag, not rotational. Clearly the impact of a round, or thicker in the case of carbon, spoke will be far more significant with rotational drag rather than translational. So this test, and by association your assumption above, is flawed.

Similar to how the drag reduction of a rear disc wheel is often understated by a purely translational drag test due to the total removal of all spokes, you need to consider both elements when comparing spoke shapes.

chrisw91 wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 28, 2022 10:40 pm

All November's wheel testing is/was conducted at the A2 Wind Tunnel. AFAIK, A2 records only translational drag, not rotational. Clearly the impact of a round, or thicker in the case of carbon, spoke will be far more significant with rotational drag rather than translational.

Not so much ... for what it's worth, Swiss Side measured rotational drag and publish results of 1.5 W for aero spokes vs round spoke, and 0.5 W for hidden nipples.

recently I saw this video talking about the carbon spokes issues and the warranty claim. it sounds not good about the Elite wheels
you can see here the full version of the issues
DOWNSIDE TO BUYING CHEAP CARBON CHINESE WHEELS!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unRggMJisSw

extrusionedwin wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 29, 2022 8:52 am

recently I saw this video talking about the carbon spokes issues and the warranty claim. it sounds not good about the Elite wheels
you can see here the full version of the issues
DOWNSIDE TO BUYING CHEAP CARBON CHINESE WHEELS!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unRggMJisSw

It's not good for the KAREN customer. He broke 2 spokes and wanted new wheels lol ... gtfo

I went from Campa Bora WTO33 (stiff but heavy) to LB AR375 (not stiff but light) to Elite Drive50 (stiff and light). All the spokes are very nice manufactured and I am very happy with the Elite wheels! I posted a bit of a review with pics in September in the Elite thread.

Kubackjeee wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 03, 2023 9:16 am

extrusionedwin wrote: ↑

Thu Dec 29, 2022 8:52 am

recently I saw this video talking about the carbon spokes issues and the warranty claim. it sounds not good about the Elite wheels
you can see here the full version of the issues
DOWNSIDE TO BUYING CHEAP CARBON CHINESE WHEELS!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unRggMJisSw

It's not good for the KAREN customer. He broke 2 spokes and wanted new wheels lol ... gtfo

Ignoring the specific customer's warranty demands, here are my issues with carbon spokes:

1) They are harder to obtain
2) They are more likely to fail than steel spokes with direct impacts (rocks, branches kicked up by other riders in the group.)
3) Bonded nature creates a weak point
4) In order to provide benefits with their improved tensile strength, fewer spokes need to be used. Fewer spokes means custom hubs and reinforced rims. Reinforced rims and hub flanges means less weight savings than the difference between the spokes themselves.
5) Higher spoke tension and a reinforced rim also reduces comfort

I'm sticking with my current stance. If someone wants to go fully bespoke with something like an 8-spoke wide carbon spoke wheel a la Spinergy Rev-X, then yeah...sounds good to me. Simply replacing the spokes on a traditionally laced wheel results in too many tradeoffs and not enough benefits.

I have spent the entire of 2022 developing wheels on carbon spokes. Being a wheel builder and road cyclist I have tried many, many wheels. Carbon spokes give the stiffest and comfy wheels I ever had. The spokes I'm using have kevlar inserts so it's not pure carbon only. Weight is also pretty nice, 1260g for 40mm disc road rim with 22.5mm inner width and carbonTi hubs. More about this project here: https://www.blackcatwheels.ch/2023/01/p ... arbon.html

If any questions, I'm happy to help and advice.

Cheers
Tomas

I´m afraid this is not a right place to advertise your products...

The EIE spokes I have been using (as above in this thread) appear to be a unidirectional layup, so it would be rather difficult mechanically for a delamination in a given location.
Personally I took a good look around at what was available, and these suit my wheelbuilding standards just fine.

In full disclosure, I've built four wheelsets with them so far, all very high tension, all under 700g which is my specialty.
I rode one of those sets on the road with nothing but amazement, mostly due to the stiffness they create.
Two of the other sets were for my customers and so unglued. The other is listed for sale but apparently I should not link.

blackcatwheels wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 17, 2023 1:20 pm

I have spent the entire of 2022 developing wheels on carbon spokes. Being a wheel builder and road cyclist I have tried many, many wheels. Carbon spokes give the stiffest and comfy wheels I ever had. The spokes I'm using have kevlar inserts so it's not pure carbon only. Weight is also pretty nice, 1260g for 40mm disc road rim with 22.5mm inner width and carbonTi hubs. More about this project here: https://www.blackcatwheels.ch/2023/01/p ... arbon.html

If any questions, I'm happy to help and advice.

Cheers
Tomas

In this instance I feel Tomas' post is relevant to the OP's question and is informative

Any info about carbon spokes used on Cadex wheels?
Weight, dimensions, strength? They seem pretty wide from pics.
https://www.cadex-cycling.com/global/sh ... -50-wheels

Roadrocket wrote: ↑

Tue Jan 17, 2023 10:12 pm

Any info about carbon spokes used on Cadex wheels?
Weight, dimensions, strength? They seem pretty wide from pics.
https://www.cadex-cycling.com/global/sh ... -50-wheels

I've seen cadex wheels live and their spokes. Didn't have opportunity to measure / weight single spoke. Recently I saw lightbicycle carbon spoked wheel and from the look, those spokes looks identically to cadex ones. I think that they are pure carbon, without any kevlar inserts but I might be wrong. Probably it will be easier to get technical details from LB than Cadex. Those spokes are made in China.

Does the kevlar insert significantly improve the strength of the spokes?
It would be good not to be surprised after an unexpected crash that the wheel broke or was unfit for further driving.
And a question for the Black Cat. In the event of a crash during a race or a fall while riding - will it be safe to continue using carbon wheels with carbon spokes?

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