Vittoria Graphene 2.0

Wheels, Tires, Tubes, Tubeless, Tubs, Spokes, Hookless, Hubs, and more!

Moderator: robbosmans

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The spirit of this board is to compile and organize wheels and tires related discussions.

If a new wheel tech is released, (say for example, TPU tubes, a brand new tire, or a new rim standard), feel free to start the discussion in the popular "Road". Your topic will eventually be moved here!
alanyu
Posts: 1505
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:10 pm

by alanyu

StanleyM wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 9:53 pm
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 9:02 pm
I have not noticed significant durability issues with the S TR. I got 3700mi from a 25mm rear tire.
Hard rubber helps durability AND rolling resistance. Other than all out stoppie-prone braking, cycling is a low g-force activity. Arguably Vittoria should cut their dry and wet grip to benefit rolling resistance and durability?

Screenshot 48.jpg
Apparently old Conti 5k TL is not grippy enough for local crits. I crashed out of the corner last year, and several people did this year. :unbelievable:

StanleyM
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:25 pm

by StanleyM

alanyu wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 9:56 pm
Apparently old Conti 5k TL is not grippy enough for local crits. I crashed out of the corner last year, and several people did this year. :unbelievable:
How old were the tires (time and distance)? Grip degrades (first noticeable in lower temps & rain) as tires heat cycle. The clock is ticking once they are produced, even if not used. Higher grip tires tend to age out / harden faster than soft. So in general, for important stuff, load on just made tires.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
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Nickldn
Posts: 1867
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:35 am

by Nickldn

alanyu wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 9:53 pm
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 9:02 pm
I have not noticed significant durability issues with the S TR. I got 3700mi from a 25mm rear tire. The sidewalls have actually held up better than with my GP5K TLs. Only one premium tire I’ve tried has gotten more mileage, and that was 4100mi from a 30mm Corsa Control TLR. Not a fair comparison because the tread wear is spread out over a much larger tire patch.

AFAIK the reason why the GP5K TL was discontinued was because the dimensions weren’t ETRTO compliant. Neither the bead diameter/circumference nor the shape conformed to the standard.
Yeah, main reason Conti stopped producing TL is the incompatibility of hookless. Though they clearly said no hookless and put the label on the package, there are still stupid people trying to use it on hookless wheels.
AFAIK the main difference between the GP5000S TR and the GP5000TL is the TL is fully vulcanised and so does not need sealant to be airtight. Hence it is a Tubless tyre and not just Tubless Ready.

The TR is not fully vulcanised and like many current tyres it needs sealant to be airtight. Not being fully vulcanised makes the TR lighter and has led to Conti changing the carcass, etc.

I am sure you are aware this has nothing at all to do with the tyre dimensions and compatibility with hookless wheels. There was nothing at all to stop Conti producing a new fully vulcanised TL2 with ETRTO compliant dimensions and full hookless compatibility. But then it'd still have been a training tyre.
Giant Propel Advanced SL Red Etap 11s Easton EC90 wheels CeramicSpeed BB Zipp SL70 bars 6.5kg

Vitus ZX1 CRS Campy Chorus 12s Bora WTO 45 disk brake wheels Zipp SL70 bars 7.5kg

SL8 build with Craft CS5060 Wheels in progress

Nickldn
Posts: 1867
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:35 am

by Nickldn

StanleyM wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 10:27 pm
alanyu wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 9:56 pm
Apparently old Conti 5k TL is not grippy enough for local crits. I crashed out of the corner last year, and several people did this year. :unbelievable:
How old were the tires (time and distance)? Grip degrades (first noticeable in lower temps & rain) as tires heat cycle. The clock is ticking once they are produced, even if not used. Higher grip tires tend to age out / harden faster than soft. So in general, for important stuff, load on just made tires.
Tyre heat cycles? It sounds like you're confusing high performance car race track tyres with bicycle tyres. Please don't, they are nothing alike.
Giant Propel Advanced SL Red Etap 11s Easton EC90 wheels CeramicSpeed BB Zipp SL70 bars 6.5kg

Vitus ZX1 CRS Campy Chorus 12s Bora WTO 45 disk brake wheels Zipp SL70 bars 7.5kg

SL8 build with Craft CS5060 Wheels in progress

StanleyM
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:25 pm

by StanleyM

Nickldn wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 11:45 pm
StanleyM wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 10:27 pm
alanyu wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 9:56 pm
Apparently old Conti 5k TL is not grippy enough for local crits. I crashed out of the corner last year, and several people did this year. :unbelievable:
How old were the tires (time and distance)? Grip degrades (first noticeable in lower temps & rain) as tires heat cycle. The clock is ticking once they are produced, even if not used. Higher grip tires tend to age out / harden faster than soft. So in general, for important stuff, load on just made tires.
Tyre heat cycles? It sounds like you're confusing high performance car race track tyres with bicycle tyres. Please don't, they are nothing alike.
Rubber ages. Affects grip, RR and more.

Rubber does not care if it is on a shelf, a car, or a bike.

Science!

Nickldn
Posts: 1867
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:35 am

by Nickldn

StanleyM wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 11:48 pm
Nickldn wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 11:45 pm
StanleyM wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 10:27 pm
alanyu wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 9:56 pm
Apparently old Conti 5k TL is not grippy enough for local crits. I crashed out of the corner last year, and several people did this year. :unbelievable:
How old were the tires (time and distance)? Grip degrades (first noticeable in lower temps & rain) as tires heat cycle. The clock is ticking once they are produced, even if not used. Higher grip tires tend to age out / harden faster than soft. So in general, for important stuff, load on just made tires.
Tyre heat cycles? It sounds like you're confusing high performance car race track tyres with bicycle tyres. Please don't, they are nothing alike.
Rubber ages. Affects grip, RR and more.

Rubber does not care if it is on a shelf, a car, or a bike.

Science!
?????? Rubber aging on bicycle tyres has nothing to do with heat cycles.

Fact! :D
Giant Propel Advanced SL Red Etap 11s Easton EC90 wheels CeramicSpeed BB Zipp SL70 bars 6.5kg

Vitus ZX1 CRS Campy Chorus 12s Bora WTO 45 disk brake wheels Zipp SL70 bars 7.5kg

SL8 build with Craft CS5060 Wheels in progress

StanleyM
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:25 pm

by StanleyM

Nickldn wrote:
Sun Sep 11, 2022 12:05 am
?????? Rubber aging on bicycle tyres has nothing to do with heat cycles.

Fact! :D
On that we will disagree.

The manufacuring process *alone* involves a few heat stages / vulcanization!!

Just sitting on a shelf, aging related to that process heat is changing the tire over time.

Continental simply chose an ECO type compound to help with rolling resistance. They chose to live with the lesser Dry and Wet grip associated with that. That was a wise move if cycling will not need more grip. If lots more grips was needed...up will go the RR watts.

Using a grippier compound in the center as Vittoria does, hurts rolling resistance a bit. But...over time they will lose some of that grip and gain some RR benefits.

I haven't many tires mounted for testing ATM, but I can say for sure that a N.EXT has worlds more grip than a 3/4 worn Gatorskins (datalogged). It also has lower RR but rubber alone is not the reason for that. The Gatorskin's penetration benefits (carcasss mostly) harms RR a bit.

Many tradeoffs.

Bear in mind that there don't seem to be many objective ride quality tests for bike tires, but there could be. That's another tradeoff and some may care a lot or not at all about ride quality.

Ideally use freshly produced tires forthwith if the best overall behavior matters. Don't go into a big event with 5 year old tires off the shelf / never-mounted. Cuz they degraded a bit from time alone, tracing back to the process heat from when they were produced - the timer keeps running. If you do have to store, UV and Ozone exposure don't help.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12456
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Heat exposure, UV exposure, ozone exposure, etc. all lead to embrittlement in rubber.

Nickldn
Posts: 1867
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:35 am

by Nickldn

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sun Sep 11, 2022 12:28 am
Heat exposure, UV exposure, ozone exposure, etc. all lead to embrittlement in rubber.
Agree with this. Old tyres will exhibit cracking and of course other invisible damage, but that is after 10 - 20 years of storage.

This particular conversation is about the grip of contemporary tyres the GP5000S TR and GP5000TL, see alanyu's post above. Unless one of these has been left out in very strong sunlight, or cooked, I'd expect most stock on shop shelves to be in good condition. Same for Corsa G+ 2.0.
Giant Propel Advanced SL Red Etap 11s Easton EC90 wheels CeramicSpeed BB Zipp SL70 bars 6.5kg

Vitus ZX1 CRS Campy Chorus 12s Bora WTO 45 disk brake wheels Zipp SL70 bars 7.5kg

SL8 build with Craft CS5060 Wheels in progress

CampagYOLO
Posts: 705
Joined: Thu May 06, 2021 3:58 pm

by CampagYOLO

I've ridden hose pipes with more grip than Gatorskins. Not much point comparing them with the kind of tyres most Weight weenies will be riding.

bobones
Posts: 1271
Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:19 am

by bobones

AKA Bananaskins for good reason.

User avatar
wheelsONfire
Posts: 6283
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:15 am
Location: NorthEU

by wheelsONfire

StanleyM wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 11:48 pm
Nickldn wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 11:45 pm
StanleyM wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 10:27 pm
alanyu wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 9:56 pm
Apparently old Conti 5k TL is not grippy enough for local crits. I crashed out of the corner last year, and several people did this year. :unbelievable:
How old were the tires (time and distance)? Grip degrades (first noticeable in lower temps & rain) as tires heat cycle. The clock is ticking once they are produced, even if not used. Higher grip tires tend to age out / harden faster than soft. So in general, for important stuff, load on just made tires.
Tyre heat cycles? It sounds like you're confusing high performance car race track tyres with bicycle tyres. Please don't, they are nothing alike.
Rubber ages. Affects grip, RR and more.

Rubber does not care if it is on a shelf, a car, or a bike.

Science!
Schwalbe Pro One TLE is very "grippy". It almost feels like it is a sticky tire. But, it tend to be perceived as faster after some usage.
First i was a bit, hm, it feels as to much grip/ sticky. But now they feel faster and have a great balance of speed and grip.
Bikes:

Ax Lightness Vial EVO Race (2019.01.03)
Open *UP* (2016.04.14)
Paduano Racing Fidia (kind of shelved)


Ex bike; Vial EVO D, Vial EVO Ultra, Scott Foil, Paduano ti bike.

StanleyM
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:25 pm

by StanleyM

CampagYOLO wrote:
Sun Sep 11, 2022 8:02 am
I've ridden hose pipes with more grip than Gatorskins. Not much point comparing them with the kind of tyres most Weight weenies will be riding.
The datalogger does not care. It's just data without ads or agendas or moods.

StanleyM
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:25 pm

by StanleyM

wheelsONfire wrote:
Sun Sep 11, 2022 8:24 am
StanleyM wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 11:48 pm
Nickldn wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 11:45 pm
StanleyM wrote:
Sat Sep 10, 2022 10:27 pm


How old were the tires (time and distance)? Grip degrades (first noticeable in lower temps & rain) as tires heat cycle. The clock is ticking once they are produced, even if not used. Higher grip tires tend to age out / harden faster than soft. So in general, for important stuff, load on just made tires.
Tyre heat cycles? It sounds like you're confusing high performance car race track tyres with bicycle tyres. Please don't, they are nothing alike.
Rubber ages. Affects grip, RR and more.

Rubber does not care if it is on a shelf, a car, or a bike.

Science!
Schwalbe Pro One TLE is very "grippy". It almost feels like it is a sticky tire. But, it tend to be perceived as faster after some usage.
First i was a bit, hm, it feels as to much grip/ sticky. But now they feel faster and have a great balance of speed and grip.
Per BRR the Pro One has extremely and unusually low wet grip. Mid 0.55G vicinity (yikes). This might put it in Last Place? Per BRR one of the old "Gators" has MORE wet grip than the newest GP5000s. If cycling ever requires higher grip levels the tire wars could really heat up.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



StanleyM
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:25 pm

by StanleyM

bobones wrote:
Sun Sep 11, 2022 8:09 am
AKA Bananaskins for good reason.
Interestingly, "banannaskins" have the same or better overall wet grip (66) than the GP5000 S TR (66) and GP5000 TL (65). And better on the edges for cornering!! That is when they are fresh.

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