Bora WTO

Wheels, Tires, Tubes, Tubeless, Tubs, Spokes, Hookless, Hubs, and more!

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The spirit of this board is to compile and organize wheels and tires related discussions.

If a new wheel tech is released, (say for example, TPU tubes, a brand new tire, or a new rim standard), feel free to start the discussion in the popular "Road". Your topic will eventually be moved here!
jdms2k
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2024 1:21 am

by jdms2k

Is the WTO 45 rim brake still a good wheel to buy today? It's a few years old and I wonder if things like hub tech and rim widths have moved forward and there are better options...including from brands like Light Bicycle and Farsport.

usr
Posts: 1021
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:58 pm

by usr

It's the last iteration of rim brake wheels that will in a way remain latest generation forever. I'd say get them while you can if you want to have them. Even when they were new they haven't been the lightest wheels in the market, so I don't think anything meaningfully changed through e.g. that latest wave of carbon spokes. You get Campag wheels because you like the idea of cup & cone with actually available spare parts and the luxury of not having to mess around with rim tape, while not being terrible in the numbers disciplines. If you insist on the last few grams or desire novelty parts that may or may not be a step in the right direction, then Campag wheels haven't been your choice since long before WTO. (was tempted to write "never", but I guess O.G. Shamals would have ticked all the boxes, like few wheels before or after?)

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bqbs1234
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:04 am

by bqbs1234

Excited about these as long time owner of the outgoing 45s. But just realising that total system weight will not reduce, if anything go up. Take the 45s for example. The wheelset has total weight reduction of 100g for the pair. However, going up from 25s to 28s in GP5000s TRS would add about 60g, excluding the extra sealant required (I don't know how many grams that would be). A 28 front 30 back set up would add 80g plus extra sealant. 30/30 setup would definitely be heavier.
So really, we're getting more comfortable, (potentially more speed), but no weight saving. Still probably going to get a pair but a bit of a sad realisation

CampagYOLO
Posts: 810
Joined: Thu May 06, 2021 3:58 pm

by CampagYOLO

jdms2k wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2024 1:05 am
Is the WTO 45 rim brake still a good wheel to buy today? It's a few years old and I wonder if things like hub tech and rim widths have moved forward and there are better options...including from brands like Light Bicycle and Farsport.
They'll probably be the pinnacle of rim brake wheels, I'd say they'd be a good investment.
Also Campag are more likely to support these wheels for far longer than other brands with regards to things such as spare parts.

usr
Posts: 1021
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:58 pm

by usr

CampagYOLO wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2024 10:52 am
jdms2k wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2024 1:05 am
Is the WTO 45 rim brake still a good wheel to buy today? It's a few years old and I wonder if things like hub tech and rim widths have moved forward and there are better options...including from brands like Light Bicycle and Farsport.
They'll probably be the pinnacle of rim brake wheels, I'd say they'd be a good investment.
Also Campag are more likely to support these wheels for far longer than other brands with regards to things such as spare parts.
Regarding spare parts, I think it's a bit unfortunate that Campagnolo introduced front wheel specific bearings just before the end of rim brake. Well, more than a decade before the end of rim brake wheels (I think the smaller front bearings first came up in the old ultra and one generation of Boras?), but that's still short lived compared to the seemingly eternal "record hubs standard" that their disc front wheels returned to. If I had a choice between rim brake WTOs and rim brake WTOs, but with a slightly heavier front hub that runs the same bearings as the rear wheel, I'd pick the heavier ones. Not because I don't trust the smaller bearings, but because interchangible spare parts are awesome.

commendatore
Posts: 277
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:51 am
Location: North Carolina

by commendatore

Making the move to disc brakes recently I was saddened that my beloved WTO just didn't feel appropriate at a narrow 19mm width. I deliberated for months and was just about to order a set of enves when I saw this press release. Back to indecision I suppose. I'll always be a campy fan but I don't have a lot of faith in their resources to truly innovate in modern times.

ichobi
Posts: 1907
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:30 pm

by ichobi

bqbs1234 wrote:Excited about these as long time owner of the outgoing 45s. But just realising that total system weight will not reduce, if anything go up. Take the 45s for example. The wheelset has total weight reduction of 100g for the pair. However, going up from 25s to 28s in GP5000s TRS would add about 60g, excluding the extra sealant required (I don't know how many grams that would be). A 28 front 30 back set up would add 80g plus extra sealant. 30/30 setup would definitely be heavier.
So really, we're getting more comfortable, (potentially more speed), but no weight saving. Still probably going to get a pair but a bit of a sad realisation
Given that they are still lighter than most major brands counterpart and you dont need to use rim tape, they will still be rather light in the context of the market (if we are talking the ultra model). Equivalence in the market for the same depth (not talking chinese carbon spokes stuff) are still 50-100g+ heavier than the Bora Ultra.


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cdez36
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2023 4:08 pm

by cdez36

I'm surprised that nobody is talking about the narrow 28.4mm width on the new wheels. Any 28mm tire is going to balloon to 29+ on those 23mm internal rims, violating the rule of 105% and making those $4,000 wheels as aero as a box section wheel. I don't understand Campy's thinking here.

HiFi
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Apr 11, 2023 5:51 pm

by HiFi

This 2022 article discusses that wider tyres/rims 'have made the rule of 105 an anachronism': https://intheknowcycling.com/how-wide-w ... ou-faster/. Basically, smaller circles/tyres bend more sharply, with more side-wall curvature, larger circles/tyres have less side-wall curvature, and these do not cause the airflow detachment that was seen in the past. The rule was devised 23yrs ago, in 2001, when tyres were just 19-21mm. Rule in the era of 28mm tyres is much less than 105%, and much less important.

Nickldn
Posts: 2011
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:35 am

by Nickldn

HiFi wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2024 9:46 pm
This 2022 article discusses that wider tyres/rims 'have made the rule of 105 an anachronism': https://intheknowcycling.com/how-wide-w ... ou-faster/. Basically, smaller circles/tyres bend more sharply, with more side-wall curvature, larger circles/tyres have less side-wall curvature, and these do not cause the airflow detachment that was seen in the past. The rule was devised 23yrs ago, in 2001, when tyres were just 19-21mm. Rule in the era of 28mm tyres is much less than 105%, and much less important.
I have to say I find intheknowcycling.com to be quite flexible in their opinion wshen it comes to recommending products. They publish well written and compelling reviews, but not sure the science and objectivity is up to much.

So I would ask why Spec are making 35mm wide front wheels and claiming mounting 26mm wide tyres is more aero than 28mm wide tyres.

Both things can't be true. On the other hand I would like to see genuinely independent aero testing, such as Aerocoach, back up this claim about wider tyres and the 105% rule. Is that likely to happen, or is it pie in the sky (or wheel dish)?

HiFi
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Apr 11, 2023 5:51 pm

by HiFi

105 was probably a handy rule-of-thumb in the wheel design community back then, but campag and others today use CFD and wind tunnels to optimise wheel/tyre systems from scratch, and a 23yo rule-of-thumb probably doesn't cut much ice.

Nickldn
Posts: 2011
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:35 am

by Nickldn

^ Sure, but Newtonian physics are many hundreds of years old and so are the principles of fluid dynamics. They have applied for millennia and will continue to do so.

So unless Campy and other bicycle wheel manufacturers have somehow fundamentally altered the physical nature of the universe in the past 23 years I'd prefer to see some testing to prove the demise of the 105% rule. I'd like it to go, but need evidence.

cdez36
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2023 4:08 pm

by cdez36

That article is conjecture at best. They use information from uncited "insiders". And even those insiders admit that, even though the 105 rule becomes less applicable as wheel/tire widths grow, there is still a penalty (I think one insider said up to 3 watts). So let's assume that is true. Is it the end of the world? No. But if you've optimized everything else on your bike, why would you pay $4,000 for a set of Ultras that cost you 3 watts? I just don't understand it. Campy wheels are amazing. The hubs are amazing. CULT bearings are unmatched. The build quality is exceptional. Why go through all of that and not optimize the width? I mean, just make it 29.5 or 30mm. The wheels were obsolete the day that they were released. I just don't get it.

HiFi
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Apr 11, 2023 5:51 pm

by HiFi

Just can't let go of the idea that we (the consumers) know more about 28mm rim/tyre optimsation than those for whom it's their day job (the producers)? The universe hasn't changed in the last 23 years, but 19,21,23,25,28 tyre curvatures have. Rules of physics typically aren't linear or constant. For instance resistance for a cyclist is a speed cube law (square of air resistance + mechanical resistance), so it's dramatically harder to attain higher speeds. Similarly we can't ignore reducing curvatures of tyres when assessing airflow detachment. You or I aren't as close to this coalface as the wheel designers, and if what comes out of modern CFD simulations while optimising a 28mm tyre/rim system doesn't meet a five-tyre-generations-ago rule-of-thumb, perhaps we shouldn't be so surprised.

cdez36
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2023 4:08 pm

by cdez36

https://blog.flocycling.com/aero-wheels ... ou-slower/

This is the best data I've seen on the topic so far

by Weenie


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