Bora WTO

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usr
Posts: 888
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:58 pm

by usr

AW84 wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 4:04 am
Didn't get great feedback on this when I asked originally, but in the $1500 and under price range, the WTO seems like the best quality wheelset out there, but they are narrow by ther mot modern of standard. Would you all consider the width a tradeoff for the overall quality and build of the wheels?
People like to make themselves believe that the tiny differences between roughly similar aero wheels are a bit like the jump from the aluminium-spoked wonder wheels of the age of "peak ksyrium" to deep aero wheels, but that's just wishful thinking. And you can ride fast even on Eurus (one of the heaviest wheels that has all the drag of the lighter wheels from that ara), the jump isn't *that* big.

If you want to ride 28+ and haven't bought the wheels already, get a wheelset to match. Not because of some 105 rule nuance, but because that wouldn't look wrong tool for the job.

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usr
Posts: 888
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:58 pm

by usr

Ferdi77 wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:47 am
So - the WTO 45 would be a nice match as a all around wheelset?? Or would you recommend the 60? Little bit hilly - avg speed is above 30 km/h
I never understood 45: too deep already for a true all weather wheel (the one you'd take with you if you can't know weather in advance and you intend to ride no matter what), and if you can select right before starting, it's either calm enough for 60s or so windy that you'd prefer 33 over 45. The only gap I see for them is a tragic OEM compromise (tragic, because an OEM compromise should be cheaper)

smokva
Posts: 276
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:13 pm

by smokva

usr wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 12:58 pm
I never understood 45: too deep already for a true all weather wheel (the one you'd take with you if you can't know weather in advance and you intend to ride no matter what), and if you can select right before starting, it's either calm enough for 60s or so windy that you'd prefer 33 over 45.
I fully agree with your logic, either you need aero and go with 60 or you go with 33....even better than 33 I would go with Zonda/Eurus/Shamal. Either I need aero 60 for flats or I need low profile aluminium rims that can take more beating than carbon rims and brake better (rim version) for mountains and bad weather.
I really don't undestand low profile Boras...ultralight Hyperion from 20 years ago had more sense to me.

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MrCurrieinahurry
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by MrCurrieinahurry

Those hyperons I've got a set of alloy shamal ultras and will be getting some wto 60s. The 45s are not much lighter so makes sense to just go deeper

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neeb
Posts: 1101
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:19 pm

by neeb

Nickldn wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:43 am
smokva wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:58 am
AW84 wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 4:04 am
Didn't get great feedback on this when I asked originally, but in the $1500 and under price range, the WTO seems like the best quality wheelset out there, but they are narrow by ther mot modern of standard. Would you all consider the width a tradeoff for the overall quality and build of the wheels?
My opinion about aero wheels and rim/tire width...
- if you average below 30 km/h than aero gains are not that much and you can put any tire/wheel combo you want. Forget about 105% rule and don't bother with it. Buy the wheels which you like the most.
- if you average above 30 km/h than aero gains are more and more important and in that case wider tire is worse, narrow tire will always be faster because aero gains will be bigger than rolling resistance. This is why I prefer "narrower" high profile wheels which are aero optimized for tires of measured width up to 25 mm.

Regarding comfort...if we talk about high profile aero wheels we are talking about racing bike, aggresive position and fast riding. In this case I don't need more comfort than what I get out of 25 mm tires.
So, in my opinion Bora is not a tradeoff, every other wide rim is a tradeoff...they trade aero gains for comfort which I don't need in the first place.
I fully agree with your logic. Wider rims are less aero in absolute terms and the industry is pushing wide rims for the sake of comfort for use with 28C+ tyres (see Roval front rim for SL7). Campy has not done this with the WTO and in some ways I have to applaud that decision, they are true to their racing roots.

But most Campy customers are not racing and even using 25C tyres on the WTOs is not great, as many inflate to 26mm+. I now use gp5000s tr tyres as they are fairly true to size on the WTO. What worries me is that there is not a lot of choice in narrow tyres and likely to be less in the future as the industry goes wider.
They are bang-on perfect with 23mm front 25mm back. 23mm front will inflate to nearly 25mm.

Nickldn
Posts: 1866
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:35 am

by Nickldn

neeb wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 7:13 pm
Nickldn wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 10:43 am
smokva wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:58 am
AW84 wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 4:04 am
Didn't get great feedback on this when I asked originally, but in the $1500 and under price range, the WTO seems like the best quality wheelset out there, but they are narrow by ther mot modern of standard. Would you all consider the width a tradeoff for the overall quality and build of the wheels?
My opinion about aero wheels and rim/tire width...
- if you average below 30 km/h than aero gains are not that much and you can put any tire/wheel combo you want. Forget about 105% rule and don't bother with it. Buy the wheels which you like the most.
- if you average above 30 km/h than aero gains are more and more important and in that case wider tire is worse, narrow tire will always be faster because aero gains will be bigger than rolling resistance. This is why I prefer "narrower" high profile wheels which are aero optimized for tires of measured width up to 25 mm.

Regarding comfort...if we talk about high profile aero wheels we are talking about racing bike, aggresive position and fast riding. In this case I don't need more comfort than what I get out of 25 mm tires.
So, in my opinion Bora is not a tradeoff, every other wide rim is a tradeoff...they trade aero gains for comfort which I don't need in the first place.
I fully agree with your logic. Wider rims are less aero in absolute terms and the industry is pushing wide rims for the sake of comfort for use with 28C+ tyres (see Roval front rim for SL7). Campy has not done this with the WTO and in some ways I have to applaud that decision, they are true to their racing roots.

But most Campy customers are not racing and even using 25C tyres on the WTOs is not great, as many inflate to 26mm+. I now use gp5000s tr tyres as they are fairly true to size on the WTO. What worries me is that there is not a lot of choice in narrow tyres and likely to be less in the future as the industry goes wider.
They are bang-on perfect with 23mm front 25mm back. 23mm front will inflate to nearly 25mm.
Yeah sure, that's totally true: 23C comes out about 25mm wide. BUT Vittoria Corsa and Conti GP5000S TR are not available tubless in 23C, so that means being forced to use inner tubes. Not a problem for everyone, but right now I'm experimenting with tubless, so the GP5000S TR is the only game in town for the WTOs.
Giant Propel Advanced SL Red Etap 11s Easton EC90 wheels CeramicSpeed BB Zipp SL70 bars 6.5kg

Vitus ZX1 CRS Campy Chorus 12s Bora WTO 45 disk brake wheels Zipp SL70 bars 7.5kg

SL8 build with Craft CS5060 Wheels in progress

smokva
Posts: 276
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:13 pm

by smokva

Nickldn wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 8:32 pm
Yeah sure, that's totally true: 23C comes out about 25mm wide. BUT Vittoria Corsa and Conti GP5000S TR are not available tubless in 23C, so that means being forced to use inner tubes. Not a problem for everyone, but right now I'm experimenting with tubless, so the GP5000S TR is the only game in town for the WTOs.
Schwalbe Pro One TLE 25 mm should measure 25 mm on 19 mm inner width of the rim. So you can try with them, I ride 25 mm tube type of those tires on my WTO 60 and like them better than GP5000 23 mm.
Tommorow ill check if Schvalbes streched to more than 25 mm after few houndred kms after instalation.

Guevarca
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:49 am

by Guevarca

MrCurrieinahurry wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:25 pm
Those hyperons ImageImage I've got a set of alloy shamal ultras and will be getting some wto 60s. The 45s are not much lighter so makes sense to just go deeper Image

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Will drop you a line on Insta if my 60s are selling soon for a great price ;-)
Stu

GaBa
Posts: 322
Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2014 6:01 pm

by GaBa

smokva wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:12 pm
usr wrote:
Fri Sep 23, 2022 12:58 pm
I never understood 45: too deep already for a true all weather wheel (the one you'd take with you if you can't know weather in advance and you intend to ride no matter what), and if you can select right before starting, it's either calm enough for 60s or so windy that you'd prefer 33 over 45.
I fully agree with your logic, either you need aero and go with 60 or you go with 33....even better than 33 I would go with Zonda/Eurus/Shamal. Either I need aero 60 for flats or I need low profile aluminium rims that can take more beating than carbon rims and brake better (rim version) for mountains and bad weather.
I really don't undestand low profile Boras...ultralight Hyperion from 20 years ago had more sense to me.
One aspect is looks and this one is obviously subjective. But to me (on my bike - Dogma F8) WTO 60 just wouldn't look right while 45 (or 33 for that matter) would seem perfect. If I were to decide only between 33 or 60 I'd probably go with 33, despite aero penalty. I am slow with or without deep wheels :lol:

smokva
Posts: 276
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:13 pm

by smokva

GaBa wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:58 am
One aspect is looks and this one is obviously subjective. But to me (on my bike - Dogma F8) WTO 60 just wouldn't look right while 45 (or 33 for that matter) would seem perfect. If I were to decide only between 33 or 60 I'd probably go with 33, despite aero penalty. I am slow with or without deep wheels :lol:
When I asked my "slow" friend why does he need aero wheels and raciest tires when he is slow anyway....he said..."You have FTP of 350W so you don't even notice aero gains of 20W, my FTP is 180W so 20W for me is massive" :noidea:

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neeb
Posts: 1101
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by neeb

GaBa wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:58 am
One aspect is looks and this one is obviously subjective. But to me (on my bike - Dogma F8) WTO 60 just wouldn't look right while 45 (or 33 for that matter) would seem perfect. If I were to decide only between 33 or 60 I'd probably go with 33, despite aero penalty. I am slow with or without deep wheels :lol:
I think WTO 60s would look great on an F8.. :)

usr
Posts: 888
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:58 pm

by usr

neeb wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 12:02 pm
GaBa wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:58 am
One aspect is looks and this one is obviously subjective. But to me (on my bike - Dogma F8) WTO 60 just wouldn't look right while 45 (or 33 for that matter) would seem perfect. If I were to decide only between 33 or 60 I'd probably go with 33, despite aero penalty. I am slow with or without deep wheels :lol:
I think WTO 60s would look great on an F8.. :)
Often depends a lot on frame size: small frames can seem too crowded with deep wheels, large frames empty without.

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MrCurrieinahurry
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by MrCurrieinahurry

F8 with WTO looks horrid honestly you can put those wheels on anything and it's looks great but I appreciate about smaller sized frame bikes...maybe....ImageImageImage ImageImage

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Formerly known as Curryinahurry

Ferdi77
Posts: 83
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:37 pm

by Ferdi77

Bora wto 60 for 1499 a good deal?


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Ferdi77
Posts: 83
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2021 5:37 pm

by Ferdi77

How would you describe the braking performance in the dry / wet with the clincher wheels?


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by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
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