Hookless and updated ISO Standards - Thomas De Gendt Crash

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BigBoyND
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by BigBoyND

Yes, it is closed-cell foam and collapses to a tiny strip that sits in the center channel, with no tire contact

by Weenie


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mikehhhhhhh
Posts: 240
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Location: UK

by mikehhhhhhh

Lina wrote:
Thu Feb 29, 2024 12:13 am
mikehhhhhhh wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2024 5:42 pm
Oh well, would you look at that

https://road.cc/content/news/vittoria-s ... IT1mwJA4po
So let me get this straight? Vittoria are openly admitting that their tires can come off hookless rims even when used with combinations that are approved by both them and the wheel manufacturer when you hit a rock/pothole/cobbles. Doesn't sound like a safe system for me. This statement by Vittoria should be grounds enough to ban hookless immediately and not the excuse they think it is.
Can we ban hooked rims after Derek Gee and Fred Wright's tyres dismounting last year as well?

Lina
Posts: 1118
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:09 pm

by Lina

mikehhhhhhh wrote:
Thu Feb 29, 2024 8:30 am
Lina wrote:
Thu Feb 29, 2024 12:13 am
mikehhhhhhh wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2024 5:42 pm
Oh well, would you look at that

https://road.cc/content/news/vittoria-s ... IT1mwJA4po
So let me get this straight? Vittoria are openly admitting that their tires can come off hookless rims even when used with combinations that are approved by both them and the wheel manufacturer when you hit a rock/pothole/cobbles. Doesn't sound like a safe system for me. This statement by Vittoria should be grounds enough to ban hookless immediately and not the excuse they think it is.
Can we ban hooked rims after Derek Gee and Fred Wright's tyres dismounting last year as well?
Both of those were a case of flat on cobbles, no liner, keeps riding with a flat tire (it's not like you could instantly stop from +40 km/h) and the tire comes off the rim/the rim disintegrates on the rough cobbles. As pretty much everyone expects to happen in that scenario. This case is a tire coming off the rim on its own if we believe De Gendt's original version of the story. Or due to hitting a rock if we believe Vittoria. Neither scenario is acceptable for something as safety critical as tires.

mikehhhhhhh
Posts: 240
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Location: UK

by mikehhhhhhh

Lina wrote:
Thu Feb 29, 2024 9:12 am
it's not like you could instantly stop from +40 km/h
So what you're saying is, there was a loss of pressure and the tyre came off before they could stop.

Sounds just as much of a safety concern to me and they're incredibly similar assuming Vittoria isn't outright lying about the rock strike. If hooked rims cannot retain a tyre long enough to stop, how can you blame hookless for not retaining it after a total rim failure?

You'll of course claim that Vittoria are lying, which aside from begging the question what they have to gain by defending hookless, is totally ridiculous to dismiss one of the few that will have thoroughly examined the wheel and tyre, when all you have to oppose it is "doesn't sound right to me".

Lina
Posts: 1118
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:09 pm

by Lina

mikehhhhhhh wrote:
Thu Feb 29, 2024 9:31 am
Lina wrote:
Thu Feb 29, 2024 9:12 am
it's not like you could instantly stop from +40 km/h
So what you're saying is, there was a loss of pressure and the tyre came off before they could stop.
You very conveniently left out the no liners part.

mikehhhhhhh
Posts: 240
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Location: UK

by mikehhhhhhh

Liners aren't part of the standard - hooked or hookless, and the majority do not use them.

Lina
Posts: 1118
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by Lina

mikehhhhhhh wrote:
Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:59 am
Liners aren't part of the standard - hooked or hookless, and the majority do not use them.
Majority do not use them but you're comparing cases where it was on an asphalt road in good condition, where it'd be understandable to not use liners to cases on the harshest cobbles that get raced over by road bikes. Where everyone has been using specialized equipment for decades because the standard doesn't cut it. On that situation the default should be liners for every single team.

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Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

Lina wrote:
Thu Feb 29, 2024 9:12 am
Both of those were a case of flat on cobbles, no liner, keeps riding with a flat tire (it's not like you could instantly stop from +40 km/h) and the tire comes off the rim/the rim disintegrates on the rough cobbles.
I thought the Paris Roubaix wheel collapses (Van Aert, LaPorte, Gee, others) started with broken rims from bashing into cobbles. After that just about anything tire-wise is possible.

Off topic, even though PR is only 20 percent cobbles, maybe it's time for those that are still riding 28 or 30mm to move up to 32mm tires and super wide rims - to end up with 34-35mm WAM. The energy saved by not having to stop and chase back must far outweigh any aero losses from the wider setup. (But MVP won without a crash or puncture IIRC so...)
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

toxin
Posts: 571
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2023 5:56 pm

by toxin

The Jumbo taco wheels were shimano tubulars because they wanted to be able to keep going for a bit if they flatted.

6fu
Posts: 24
Joined: Thu Nov 23, 2023 10:59 am

by 6fu

mikehhhhhhh wrote:
Thu Feb 29, 2024 10:59 am
Liners aren't part of the standard - hooked or hookless, and the majority do not use them.
Did you invest in hookles rims? Sounds like it may be clouding your view on this incident.

Hookles brings ZERO benefits to the customer, just adds more risk while saving on some production costs that the customer doesn't see.

Butcher
Shop Owner
Posts: 1931
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:58 am

by Butcher

I'm not a pro but I can't see the gains with tubeless are big enough to switch over from tubular.

But, let's just stay on task and keep bashing the hookless design.

MikeD
Posts: 1007
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:55 pm

by MikeD

I didn't see this article mentioned. A worthwhile read: https://escapecollective.com/thomas-de- ... ng-to-all/

But it is highly probable he didn’t hit anything; rather a mismatch in tyre and rim dimensions may have caused his tyre to suddenly blow off the rim.
Last edited by MikeD on Fri Mar 01, 2024 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

spdntrxi
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Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:11 pm

by spdntrxi

Butcher wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2024 5:28 pm
I'm not a pro but I can't see the gains with tubeless are big enough to switch over from tubular.

But, let's just stay on task and keep bashing the hookless design.
rolling resistence alone is enough.. ( if you race ? )
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spdntrxi
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by spdntrxi

MikeD wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2024 7:53 pm
I didn't see this article mentioned. A worthwhile read: https://escapecollective.com/thomas-de- ... ng-to-all/

But it is highly probable he didn’t hit anything; rather a mismatch in tyre and rim dimensions may have caused his tyre to suddenly blow off the rim.
I'm gonna say it.. might not be popular but this kind of "gotta be first journalism" is well dogshit.
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Butcher
Shop Owner
Posts: 1931
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:58 am

by Butcher

spdntrxi wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2024 7:56 pm
Butcher wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2024 5:28 pm
I'm not a pro but I can't see the gains with tubeless are big enough to switch over from tubular.

But, let's just stay on task and keep bashing the hookless design.
rolling resistence alone is enough.. ( if you race ? )
I suspect the rolling resistance of the original picture is a bit more than any tubular. Stopping because your tire fell off is not something that will help either.

In either case, technology rolls on [see what I did there?] and there will always be that crusty old man that does not want to go along.

Now get off my grass.

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