Audaxing wheelset for the n=1 bike

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BobbyAamand
Posts: 40
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Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

by BobbyAamand

I have a Bombtrack Audax that I use as my do-it-all bike from gravel/allroad to commuting to bikepacking.

Slowly I am starting to get interested in audax riding and am wondering if I should get at second wheelset. As og now I only have a 650b set where i run varying 45-48s. I am quite happy with 650b but the internet keeps telling me that 700c is far superior for endurance riding. The frame can take 700x32 slicks with fenders and 700x35 without.

Would a good 700c set make a noticeable difference? I am thinking Light bicycle AR46 on DT350s or something like that.

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Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

If you are on tarmac surface and speed is decent, than the bigger wheel is an advantage. One thing to keep in mind is that to optimize speed you want at rim that is slightly wider than the tire. Light Bicycle has the WR series some of which are 32mm wide. Various 28 and 30mm tires will inflate to between 30 and 32mm creating good aero optimization. At proper inflation comfort will still be quite good.
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CampagYOLO
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by CampagYOLO

I'd definitely get a 700c wheelset with a 28-32mm slick tyre. It will be noticeably more efficient.

Given it'll be for audax riding how about a dynamo hub? Also whenever I do an audax the weather is rubbish. Not sure I'd want a rim that deep to catch the wind.

BobbyAamand
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:45 pm
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

by BobbyAamand

CampagYOLO wrote:
Sat Feb 04, 2023 7:10 am
I'd definitely get a 700c wheelset with a 28-32mm slick tyre. It will be noticeably more efficient.

Given it'll be for audax riding how about a dynamo hub? Also whenever I do an audax the weather is rubbish. Not sure I'd want a rim that deep to catch the wind.
I thought about getting a dynamo. But a Son 28 plus Edelux II is around the same as a pair of carbon rims. But maybe I could go with a Shutter precision front/350 back on a pair of decent DT alloy rims negating the aero part however. Does anyone have expericence with Shutter? I guess I will need the PL-7 for 12x100 TA?

Nickldn
Posts: 1865
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:35 am

by Nickldn

BobbyAamand wrote:
Sat Feb 04, 2023 4:00 pm
CampagYOLO wrote:
Sat Feb 04, 2023 7:10 am
I'd definitely get a 700c wheelset with a 28-32mm slick tyre. It will be noticeably more efficient.

Given it'll be for audax riding how about a dynamo hub? Also whenever I do an audax the weather is rubbish. Not sure I'd want a rim that deep to catch the wind.
I thought about getting a dynamo. But a Son 28 plus Edelux II is around the same as a pair of carbon rims. But maybe I could go with a Shutter precision front/350 back on a pair of decent DT alloy rims negating the aero part however. Does anyone have expericence with Shutter? I guess I will need the PL-7 for 12x100 TA?
Do you really need dynamo power in this day and age? You can easily charge most lights on the go using a portable USB charger costing almost nothing and weighing a few hundred grams.

Dynamos may have been necessary in the days of power hungry tungsten element bulbs, but today they are just a nostalgia trip.
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voicycle
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by voicycle

I've got LB WR45 rims for gravel and WR50 for audax-y type road stuff. 28mm GP5000 TLs inflate to about 31mm and make a perfect aero profile with either set of rims (still not worn out the last of my TLs yet so not sure if the TRs size up the same, but you'd either be looking for 28s or 30s in order to get a 31mm WAM).

If I was going to choose one of the two specifically for riding audaxes then it would probably be the WR45s. There's not a huge difference in handling in the wind - they're both really stable because they're so wide - but the 45s are painted and the 50s have a paintless 'pro' finish. The paintless finish is much more prone to damage (and is also more expensive) so I'd choose the cheaper painted 45s to handle some abuse.

I've thought about having a spare front WR45 made up with a dynamo and probably would do it if I had the cash spare, but these days I think there are probably relatively few use-cases where a dynamo is really a significant advantage over just bringing an appropriate assortment of USB batteries for the length and conditions of the ride. Batteries and lights and such just keep getting better too.

voicycle
Posts: 170
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by voicycle

voicycle wrote:
Sat Feb 04, 2023 5:07 pm
these days I think there are probably relatively few use-cases where a dynamo is really a significant advantage over just bringing an appropriate assortment of USB batteries for the length and conditions of the ride. Batteries and lights and such just keep getting better too.
I made that claim with authority and then realised I'd never actually done a comparison, so I got curious. This is a fair bit off topic, but...

DT240EXP 24h CL 12x100 front hub is 104g
Son Dynamo 24h CL 12x100 front hub is 420g (Son Deluxe is lighter but looks like it only comes in 32h so then there's the weight of extra spokes to consider)
Difference: 316g

(I'm assuming it's roughly break even on other things - a sinewave USB charger & cable is 43g, cabling for lights adds a bit of weight, but then the lights weigh less because they don't have batteries, you still need backup lights, etc.)

This 20,000 mAh power bank is 342g: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Anker-PowerCor ... 23329&th=1
That's a weight savings of 26g for the dynamo setup. But the dynamo generates 3w so I assume it must cost about 5w at the pedals? I'd say that's worth more than 26g.

But where does 20,000 mAh get you?
My iPhone 11 pro has a 3046 mAh battery, so it could be charged 6+ times
My Wahoo Elemnt Bolt V2 has a 1600 mAh battery, which makes 12.5 charges.
My Exposure Strada mk10RS has a 5200 mAh batter, so not quite 4 charges
I tend to use a rear light with coin batteries that last a couple hundred hours in flashing mode, so no charge required.

Let's say for a 600km audax I might charge:
iPhone x2 = 6092 mAh
Elemnt x3 = 4800 mAh
Light x2 = 10,400 mAh
TOTAL = 21,292 mAh. If I manage to plug something into a wall for 20 minutes twice on that trip then I'm covered. And realistically I'm probably not draining all of those devices completely each time, so I'd guess total usage is a fair bit less.


Seems to me like the break-even point is beyond the 600km mark, but not far off. However, once you get to that point you start to become more and more likely to make longer stops in places with plug points. And how often do you have to do these things at a highly competitive level before the dynamo becomes a better prospect, even if you end up carrying a second 300g powerbank for the longer ones?

To each their own, but that's given me more confidence that I don't really need a dynamo for my usage.

Dat
Posts: 130
Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2020 7:57 am

by Dat

I do audax. A continuous RRtY and also a SR most years, the only exception being Covid. I ride fixed but the same things apply.

First is comfort, anything to stay comfortable on a long ride takes priority. I run no smaller that 35mm, I had a 650b bike and ran 47mm. If you're uncomfortable you're going to be slow.

Regarding dynamos yes batteries up front seem like the better idea. The issue with this is at 400k plus anything you can do to keep faff down and life simple I go for. Try cycling for 30hrs non stop, get to a control and have to piss around trying to charge your lights.

Dat
Posts: 130
Joined: Sat Mar 07, 2020 7:57 am

by Dat

Also, if running bigger tyres pick up some Rene Herse. I was broke and recently bought Gravelking slicks and the difference is noticeable.

ghostinthemachine
Posts: 780
Joined: Thu May 07, 2015 9:18 pm

by ghostinthemachine

I've worked on a few ultra distance bikes, and the lack of things to think about is the benefit of a dynamo.
It's dark, switch your lights on. That's it. They never go flat, they rarely fail. They just work.
Lots of dynamo systems include a small battery for keeping the lights on during stops (comfort breaks or mechanicals). Some have a larger battery for storage and one or two USB ports either in the steerer or seat tube/post for charging devices on the go.

BobbyAamand
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:45 pm
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

by BobbyAamand

voicycle wrote:
Sat Feb 04, 2023 6:00 pm
voicycle wrote:
Sat Feb 04, 2023 5:07 pm
these days I think there are probably relatively few use-cases where a dynamo is really a significant advantage over just bringing an appropriate assortment of USB batteries for the length and conditions of the ride. Batteries and lights and such just keep getting better too.
I made that claim with authority and then realised I'd never actually done a comparison, so I got curious. This is a fair bit off topic, but...

DT240EXP 24h CL 12x100 front hub is 104g
Son Dynamo 24h CL 12x100 front hub is 420g (Son Deluxe is lighter but looks like it only comes in 32h so then there's the weight of extra spokes to consider)
Difference: 316g

(I'm assuming it's roughly break even on other things - a sinewave USB charger & cable is 43g, cabling for lights adds a bit of weight, but then the lights weigh less because they don't have batteries, you still need backup lights, etc.)

This 20,000 mAh power bank is 342g: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Anker-PowerCor ... 23329&th=1
That's a weight savings of 26g for the dynamo setup. But the dynamo generates 3w so I assume it must cost about 5w at the pedals? I'd say that's worth more than 26g.

But where does 20,000 mAh get you?
My iPhone 11 pro has a 3046 mAh battery, so it could be charged 6+ times
My Wahoo Elemnt Bolt V2 has a 1600 mAh battery, which makes 12.5 charges.
My Exposure Strada mk10RS has a 5200 mAh batter, so not quite 4 charges
I tend to use a rear light with coin batteries that last a couple hundred hours in flashing mode, so no charge required.

Let's say for a 600km audax I might charge:
iPhone x2 = 6092 mAh
Elemnt x3 = 4800 mAh
Light x2 = 10,400 mAh
TOTAL = 21,292 mAh. If I manage to plug something into a wall for 20 minutes twice on that trip then I'm covered. And realistically I'm probably not draining all of those devices completely each time, so I'd guess total usage is a fair bit less.


Seems to me like the break-even point is beyond the 600km mark, but not far off. However, once you get to that point you start to become more and more likely to make longer stops in places with plug points. And how often do you have to do these things at a highly competitive level before the dynamo becomes a better prospect, even if you end up carrying a second 300g powerbank for the longer ones?

To each their own, but that's given me more confidence that I don't really need a dynamo for my usage.
That was fantastic. One thing to consider is wether the light will work while charging. Given the price tag on your's I am sure it will :mrgreen: What rear light do you use? I use a usb rechargeable Abus Gemini that for some reason doesn't give a warning when it's about to run dry. On the front I run a Ravemen PR1200 but find that it's rather clunky and I don't like that the mount is more of a permanent fixture on the handlebar.

BobbyAamand
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:45 pm
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

by BobbyAamand

Dat wrote:
Sat Feb 04, 2023 7:39 pm
I do audax. A continuous RRtY and also a SR most years, the only exception being Covid. I ride fixed but the same things apply.

First is comfort, anything to stay comfortable on a long ride takes priority. I run no smaller that 35mm, I had a 650b bike and ran 47mm. If you're uncomfortable you're going to be slow.

Regarding dynamos yes batteries up front seem like the better idea. The issue with this is at 400k plus anything you can do to keep faff down and life simple I go for. Try cycling for 30hrs non stop, get to a control and have to piss around trying to charge your lights.
That's a great argument for the dynamo.

Regarding the tires apparently 650x47 has the same diameter as a 700x28 so the bigger is more efficient is out of the window. Maybe if I fit some nice fast rolling tires the difference should mostly be down to aero vs added comfort. Hmm that gives me a great deal to think about :lol:

Nickldn
Posts: 1865
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:35 am

by Nickldn

BobbyAamand wrote:
Sun Feb 05, 2023 10:08 pm
Dat wrote:
Sat Feb 04, 2023 7:39 pm
I do audax. A continuous RRtY and also a SR most years, the only exception being Covid. I ride fixed but the same things apply.

First is comfort, anything to stay comfortable on a long ride takes priority. I run no smaller that 35mm, I had a 650b bike and ran 47mm. If you're uncomfortable you're going to be slow.

Regarding dynamos yes batteries up front seem like the better idea. The issue with this is at 400k plus anything you can do to keep faff down and life simple I go for. Try cycling for 30hrs non stop, get to a control and have to piss around trying to charge your lights.
That's a great argument for the dynamo.

Regarding the tires apparently 650x47 has the same diameter as a 700x28 so the bigger is more efficient is out of the window. Maybe if I fit some nice fast rolling tires the difference should mostly be down to aero vs added comfort. Hmm that gives me a great deal to think about :lol:
In spite of the similar diameter I would argue the rolling resistance and aero resistance of 650x47 wheels/tyres bears rather little resemblance to 700x28 wheels/tyres. I would **never** choose to push 47c tyres over a long distance rather than 700x28's. It's like night and day.

More comfort on the other hand is a totally different argument, but I guess a lot of it comes down to what roads you are riding. 700x28 are perfectly fine on half decent roads, but obviously 650x47 are going to be better if you ride off road, or rough gravel.

As for the dynamo vs battery light argument, if you're riding for 30h without rest and sleep I would argue you're a danger to yourself and others regardless of working lights. :D
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voicycle
Posts: 170
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:38 am

by voicycle

BobbyAamand wrote:
Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:59 pm
One thing to consider is wether the light will work while charging. Given the price tag on your's I am sure it will :mrgreen: What rear light do you use? I use a usb rechargeable Abus Gemini that for some reason doesn't give a warning when it's about to run dry. On the front I run a Ravemen PR1200 but find that it's rather clunky and I don't like that the mount is more of a permanent fixture on the handlebar.
Pretty sure it works while charging but I'd go see if there are any threads about lights in the Bikepacking / Randonneuring subforum for better advice before deciding what best suits your needs. Many can be under-bar mounted or stuck on a 2in1 Garmin/GoPro out front mount which saves bar real estate. I bought my Strada for some bikepacking races and other mad 24hr+ adventures with similar requirements but have never actually entered a sanctioned audax. Folk like Dat and ghostinthemachine clearly have more direct experience than me (and the argument for simplicity is a great one given what happens to brain function on those kinds of events.)

I've given very little thought to my rear lights (that's a lie, I have a Cycliq Fly6 for training rides but it's useless beyond 3hrs). I think my 'good' tail light is a CatEye Omni 3 which takes AAA batteries and runs 150+ hrs in flashing mode. It's not got enough tech to give you warning when it gives out, but IMO if you're doing this kind of riding you should always have some kind of minimal emergency backup light with you so you can limp on to a more permanent solution if something goes wrong with your primary setup (dynamo or otherwise). I use the CatEye Orb front and rear lights (CR2032 rather than rechargeable) for this. I wouldn't rely on them outside of a well-lit city, but they're good enough to ensure you're more than a shadow in a pinch.

I suppose if there was a chance of fog or driving rain I might want a bit more power, in which case it might be worth stepping up from the Omni a level or two for the main tail light and then carrying a F/R set of Omnis as the backup. The great thing about AAA lights for backup is that you've got to be riding somewhere incredibly remote before it's possible to go 150 hours of night riding in between being able to buy AAA batteries. Nothing in that category is going to light the road in front of you well enough to continue at more than a crawl, but at least you'll be visible to others.


Nickldn wrote:
Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:51 pm
In spite of the similar diameter I would argue the rolling resistance and aero resistance of 650x47 wheels/tyres bears rather little resemblance to 700x28 wheels/tyres. I would **never** choose to push 47c tyres over a long distance rather than 700x28's. It's like night and day.
I'll echo this. 650x47 feel like hard work to me when I ride them. On rough roads the tradeoff of increasing from 700x25 to 28, 30, and sometimes 32 feels like a win, but by the time I get to the 700x40 from my gravel bike the comfort isn't worth the loss in speed for me unless I'm going somewhere unpaved. That whole field of comparison is incredibly subjective because it's really hard to isolate rolling resistance from comfort from aerodynamics from rotational inertia etc. and both surface type and riding style will have an impact too. I can't remember if this is country-specific, but I think a Zipp or an Enve or a Silca or someone estimated that a 700x28c tyre is likely the most efficient balance of rolling resistance and aerodynamics on most paved roads. If that's to be believed then I guess the ultimate individual assessment to make is, "how much bigger than 28 do I have to go to ensure I don't lose more time resting due to discomfort than I do by rolling slower whilst riding?" For me I think the answer might be duration-dependent from about 24 hours up to a week or so. Less than that & I'm happy on 28, and once I'm comfortable enough to go for a week then comfort stops being a limiting factor.

Out of curiosity I just did a google image search for 'transcontinental race' and from a quick scroll through it looks like mostly 28-32c tyres. Then did the same for 'Paris Brest Paris' and it looks like mostly 700x30c or bigger - quite a few even look like 700x42-45c, but I also note that a lot of the images are from the Rene Herse website which might skew things to the cushier end of the spectrum.

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BobbyAamand
Posts: 40
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:45 pm
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

by BobbyAamand

Wow this sent me down the hub dynamo rabbit hole. I'm now convinced I need a Son28 and an B&M IQ-X in my life. The dynamo front lights seem to be very nice compared to the battery options. And the Son hub should keep its secondhand value all right should I ever regret.

For now I'll lace up a 650b front wheel to a RR481 and then try some Rene Herse 42mm slicks. If I like it I'll build matching rear and if not I can transfer the hub on to 700c.

Thanks so much for all the input.
voicycle wrote:
Mon Feb 06, 2023 2:13 pm
Pretty sure it works while charging but I'd go see if there are any threads about lights in the Bikepacking / Randonneuring subforum for better advice before deciding what best suits your needs. Many can be under-bar mounted or stuck on a 2in1 Garmin/GoPro out front mount which saves bar real estate.
I actually have that from JRC components but my light can't be turned upside down without ruining the beam shape. So stupid. But the IQ-X has a flexible mount so that different mounting options are available. I really like that.

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