Tarmac SL8 5.835kg New Pics Page 3

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Bianchi10
Posts: 836
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:53 pm

by Bianchi10

Can you tell me more about these wheels?!

by Weenie


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da123
Posts: 506
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:42 am

by da123

Bianchi10 wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2023 5:37 pm
Can you tell me more about these wheels?!
I believe there is a separate thread on the Craft Racing Works wheels, so you're probably best looking at that given that I've not actually had chance to ride mine yet. My first impressions are positive though - in particular:

(1) excellent communication from Panda Podium (distributor) on lots of queries I had;
(2) bang on the advertised weight. The rims are circa 360g (fr) 380 (r) if the writing on the rim is to be believed;
(3) finish on the wheels seems very good (somewhat contrary to what certain people have said on the other thread, but I have scrutinised them and cannot identify any problems);
(4) hubs run super smooth out the box (they seem to be DT Swiss 180 copies);
(5) very easy to set up tubeless;
(6) I like that they are hooked rims, so flexibility on tires;
(7) I like that the internal width is 21mm, not wider, as I prefer 25mm tires and the wider internals of ENVE etc. rule this out;
(8) Peak Torque has tested the slightly deeper version (5055), and they were the most aero set he'd tested (usual caveats about testing apply of course, but it was reassuring that they are probably in the ballpark);
(9) It remains to be seen once I get chance to ride them, but I do like CRW's logic in terms of spoke count and how this balances stiffness and comfort.

Things I was less keen on:

(1) no spare spokes included
(2) the supplied tubeless valves aren't that great (no big issue, I replaced them with Muc-off valves)
(3) the packaging they were sent in could be improved. My box was quite damaged on delivery (although the wheels were unaffected). I did feed this back to Panda Podium, so perhaps this will be addressed going forward.

Cheers, Dave

da123
Posts: 506
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:42 am

by da123

Some very minor changes, via replacement ti bolts and matching tubeless valves and DM hanger. The top cap bolt fits pretty well with the Rapide cockpit thankfully. Not done for weight savings, although it's probably dropped a mighty 5g or so (although the replacement brake pad holder pins were actually heavier than stock). One point to note - the bolts were from Better Bolts, and I also bought the derailleur pulley bolts which they say are suitable for Shimano DA mechs. This isn't the case, so don't waste your money.
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OtterSpace
Posts: 397
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:28 am
Location: California Silicon Valley

by OtterSpace

Nice all out build.

Given that you are already bolt tunning something to consider is the S-parts bolt kits. I learned of them here through Jaisen's post in this thread. Jaisen posted extensively on how the bolts compared to ultegra here. From my research the brake kit is what drops most of the weight and you already upgraded most of the bolts that come with the drivetrain kit. We both bought our kit from tipartstitanium and I am unaffiliated with them. This vendor also has SL8 parts but I am only familiar with their s-parts kit.

I also have some info on shifter clamp bolt changes here

da123
Posts: 506
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:42 am

by da123

OtterSpace wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2023 5:49 pm
Nice all out build.

Given that you are already bolt tunning something to consider is the S-parts bolt kits. I learned of them here through Jaisen's post in this thread. Jaisen posted extensively on how the bolts compared to ultegra here. From my research the brake kit is what drops most of the weight and you already upgraded most of the bolts that come with the drivetrain kit. We both bought our kit from tipartstitanium and I am unaffiliated with them. This vendor also has SL8 parts but I am only familiar with their s-parts kit.

I also have some info on shifter clamp bolt changes here
Cheers for this! Much appreciated. Will look into it for sure.

mike
Resident Pro
Posts: 3073
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2003 9:42 pm

by mike

How much for the special order ceramic sleeves?

da123
Posts: 506
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:42 am

by da123

mike wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2023 9:43 pm
How much for the special order ceramic sleeves?
They just charged me the same as for a standard ceramic BB. They don't advertise it as a product on their site though, so whether that was a one off for an existing customer or whether that's just how they'd treat anyone asking I couldn't tell you!

mike
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by mike

Many thanks!🙏

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Aryeh
Posts: 567
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:07 am

by Aryeh

I have this handy tool that I 3d printed, and I measure each bolt and then order it from AliExpress. 99% of the bolts are standard sizes and they are $2-3 per bolt for GR5 Ti instead of like $7-10 per bolt from S-Parts.ImageImage

OtterSpace
Posts: 397
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:28 am
Location: California Silicon Valley

by OtterSpace

great tip and I agree and do the same to try to avoid paying more for standard Ti bolts. Calipers are very useful too as are wall mounted thread checkers to confirm thread pitch which the above tool can't do.

From what I've seen the following bolts are generally standard or close enough to substitute:
Top cap (Might use a counter sunk head)
Stem
FD mount bolt (not washer)
Mechanical shifting under bb cable routing bolt
Frame hole cover bolts
Rear disc caliper mounting bolt
Standard two bolt seatpost bolts
computer mount bolts
gopro mount bolts and nut
Seatpost clamp bolts (check headsize for clearance)
Front disc caliper mounting bolt to frame through adapter if needed

The following items are fairly easy to find individually due to shared bolts between bikes but they are typically not purely standard non bike parts:
Front disc caliper mounting bolt to mounting adapter (needs the right counter sunk head)
Derailleur hanger mount bolts if used (Might use a counter sunk head)
Standard two bolt seatpost round nuts
Shifter clamp bolt and nut
FD washer
Disc pad bolt
Disc caliper hose nut
Disc shifter hose nut
H L adjusters
Rim caliper pivot bolt
Jockey wheel bolts (confirm exact fit for your exact RD cage)
Disc shifter bleed nut (heavier not worth buying)
Shimano crank preload bolt (heavier not worth buying)
B link bolt (from what I've read heavier and not worth buying but I haven't confirmed)

The following items generally require more specific larger kits:
Disc caliper bleed ports and or on off flow bolts
Disc caliper bolts that connect between caliper halfs and pass through fluid
One bolt seatpost clamp parts for specific bikes
Rim brake bolt kits
Cleat bolt washers

User avatar
Aryeh
Posts: 567
Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:07 am

by Aryeh

OtterSpace wrote:great tip and I agree and do the same to try to avoid paying more for standard Ti bolts. Calipers are very useful too as are wall mounted thread checkers to confirm thread pitch which the above tool can't do.

From what I've seen the following bolts are generally standard or close enough to substitute:
Top cap (Might use a counter sunk head)
Stem
FD mount bolt (not washer)
Mechanical shifting under bb cable routing bolt
Frame hole cover bolts
Rear disc caliper mounting bolt
Standard two bolt seatpost bolts
computer mount bolts
gopro mount bolts and nut
Seatpost clamp bolts (check headsize for clearance)
Front disc caliper mounting bolt to frame through adapter if needed

The following items are fairly easy to find individually due to shared bolts between bikes but they are typically not purely standard non bike parts:
Front disc caliper mounting bolt to mounting adapter (needs the right counter sunk head)
Derailleur hanger mount bolts if used (Might use a counter sunk head)
Standard two bolt seatpost round nuts
Shifter clamp bolt and nut
FD washer
Disc pad bolt
Disc caliper hose nut
Disc shifter hose nut
H L adjusters
Rim caliper pivot bolt
Jockey wheel bolts (confirm exact fit for your exact RD cage)
Disc shifter bleed nut (heavier not worth buying)
Shimano crank preload bolt (heavier not worth buying)
B link bolt (from what I've read heavier and not worth buying but I haven't confirmed)

The following items generally require more specific larger kits:
Disc caliper bleed ports and or on off flow bolts
Disc caliper bolts that connect between caliper halfs and pass through fluid
One bolt seatpost clamp parts for specific bikes
Rim brake bolt kits
Cleat bolt washers
Bolts I've replaced so far:
Top cap: M6x25mm countersunk (I used an alloy bolt)
Handlebar clamp: M5x20mm+nuts ( I have the Avian Canary barstem)
RD Hanger Bolt: M5x10mm
FD Hanger Bolts: M4x10mm countersunk (I used alloy)
FD Mounting bolt: M5x16mm

I use alloy for any bolts that don't need high torque because they are even lighter than Titanium.

The seapost clamp bolt is M6x30mm but it has a thinner than normal head. I ordered the normal head bolt and I'll see if it fits anyway since the grommet that goes above it is rubber and it's flexible.
The bolt from AliExpress was $1.98, while the one from TiParts is $11.
I'm not replacing the saddle clamp bolts because I ordered a Darimo post.

The bottle cage bolts it came with are already really light alloy bolts, and the caliper mounting bolts that my Red AXS groupset came with are already titanium.
I'm not gonna bother changing the bolts on the calipers themselves because then I'll need a new brake bleed.

da123
Posts: 506
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:42 am

by da123

Aryeh wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2023 7:53 pm
I have this handy tool that I 3d printed, and I measure each bolt and then order it from AliExpress. 99% of the bolts are standard sizes and they are $2-3 per bolt for GR5 Ti instead of like $7-10 per bolt from S-Parts.ImageImage
Great bit of kit! Thanks for all the tips and the detail. Bolts are probably the only remaining area to lose weight without compromising function I think 👍

OtterSpace
Posts: 397
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:28 am
Location: California Silicon Valley

by OtterSpace

da123 wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2023 10:09 am
Great bit of kit! Thanks for all the tips and the detail. Bolts are probably the only remaining area to lose weight without compromising function I think 👍
Only places that I can see:
Calipers: Magura is lighter and performs better but requires a different hose. This will save sub 5g for each caliper so not worth it for weight alone. The front Campag caliper is ~15g heavier, more aero, and doesnt require the metal adapter plate S200700001 and second set of screws to connect the caliper to the adapter plate so weight is likely similar to Shimano. Campagnolo also has better perfomance than Shimano and is easier to bleed than Magura who campagnolo previously partnered with and iterated on the magura design. Tickstuff C22 is another option but very hard to find.
Shifter Clamp: You can save around 5g with the fairly cheap shifter clamp parts in the thread I linked earlier.
Bartape: Highly personal preference but there likely are lighter options with your prefered comfort. This is likely the best place to focus in the future.
Pedals: I use Dura-Ace too even on my sub 4.5kg builds but there are tons of lighter options that many find acceptable.
Chain: YBN 12s is lighter (about 15g by my calcs) and is faster but a bit less long lasting. Also comes in different color options oil-slick, gold, black, silver. Personally I use multiple chains to minimize wear so you could do something similar.
Cassette: I wouldn't change it if you care about shifting quality. You can change the lockring but it would only save like 2g.
Chainrings: I didn't get on very well with Carbon-Ti chainrings in terms of shifting performance for their 11s version but 12s might have machined the rings better to improve shifting to justify the weight. Also the looks of Carbon-Ti can't be improved upon.
Jocky wheels: You can drop like 5g at a very high cost by going to a 10g set. Personally I wouldn't bother.
Rotors: Something to consider is the weight of the adapter and lockring for 6 bolt to center lock to try and optimize.
Tire system: Like saddle I consider this a personal choice to match the users usability requirements.
Expander: I didn't see it listed but if you are still using the stock one you can drop a lot of weight for not much cash. My personal favorite is the Carbon-Ti expander which is very light and doesn't overly concentrate force to single points like some of the even lighter ones do (extralite for example).
Bolt tuning: prob something like 30g to drop by optimizing.
Last edited by OtterSpace on Wed Dec 20, 2023 4:50 pm, edited 3 times in total.

da123
Posts: 506
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:42 am

by da123

OtterSpace wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2023 4:13 pm
da123 wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2023 10:09 am
Great bit of kit! Thanks for all the tips and the detail. Bolts are probably the only remaining area to lose weight without compromising function I think 👍
Only places that I can see:
Calipers: Magura is lighter and performs better but requires a different hose. This will save sub 5g for each caliper so not worth it for weight alone. The front Campag caliper is ~15g heavier, more aero, and doesnt require the metal adapter plate S200700001 and second set of screws to connect the caliper to the adapter plate so weight is likely similar to Shimano. Campagnolo also has better perfomance than Shimano and is easier to bleed than Magura who campagnolo previously partnered with and iterated on the magura design. Tickstuff C22 is another option but very hard to find.
Shifter Clamp: You can save around 5g with the fairly cheap shifter clamp parts in the thread I linked earlier.
Bartape: Highly personal preference but there likely are lighter options with your prefered comfort. This is likely the best place to focus in the future.
Pedals: I use Dura-Ace too even on my sub 4.5kg builds but there are tons of lighter options that many find acceptable.
Chain: YBN 12s is lighter and is faster but a bit less durable. Also comes in different color options oil-slick, gold, black, silver.
Cassette: I wouldn't change it if you care about shifting quality. You can change the lockring but it would only save like 2g.
Chainrings: I didn't get on very well with Carbon-Ti chainrings in terms of shifting performance for their 11s version but 12s might have machined the rings better to improve shifting to justify the weight. Also the looks of Carbon-Ti can't be improved upon.
Jocky wheels: You can drop like 5g at a very high cost by going to a 10g set. Personally I wouldn't bother.
Rotors: Something to consider is the weight of the adapter and lockring for 6 bolt to center lock to try and optimize.
Tire system: Like saddle I consider this a personal choice to match the users usability requirements.
Expander: I didn't see it listed but if you are still using the stock one you can drop a lot of weight for not much cash. My personal favorite is the Carbon-Ti expander which is very light and doesn't overly concentrate force to single points like some of the even lighter ones do (extralite for example).
Bolt tuning: prob something like 30g to drop by optimizing.
Cheers for taking the time to do this. Much appreciated.

- Calipers - I have looked at Trickstuff, and would go there if the availability was anything better than about 18 months... Interesting tip on the Maguras - will take a look
- Shifter clamp - my clamps are Schmolke carbon clamps, so weight already saved here
- Bartape - don't think I can go lighter here, as have EXS bartape (about 20g the set)
- Pedals - yes, but have dabbled extensively with Time / Speedplay, and Shimano just work better. Creaking pedals is a no-go for me, no matter what the weight. Also tried Keywin (probably the lightest option when cleats taken into account), but couldn't get on with the floating axle
- Chain - this is a good call, thanks, and I have considered this before. Only question is whether it will shift worse than DA? Not concerned about the longevity. Any thoughts?
- Cassette - wouldn't change this. I have tried to run it with a SRAM cassette, but the shifting is a lot worse
- Chainrings - my Carbon-ti rings for 12s DA work well. Certainly much better than their rings for AXS
- Rotors - overall, even with adapter they are still materially lighter than DA rotors. Probably on a par with Galfer, but love the look and performance is great
- Tire system - I did run Maxxis High Road SL with 22g TPU tubes on my SL7 for a while, which is a reasonable amount lighter (30 g per wheel). The RR is not great on the Maxxis though, and puncture protection seriously lacking. Not sure how I'll get on with the tubeless TT TLRs - will be first time on road tubeless for me
- Expander - it isn't the stock expander. I did use a carbon-ti one briefly, but was a bit nervous about it, so have a cane creek one that is much longer and still a lot lighter than the Spesh one
- Bolts - yes, am looking at this, although all of the obvious ones have now been changed for ti.
- Saddle - possibility to go for the Gelu K3, although it would only save 15g or so over the one I've got.

Other areas I've looked at:

- cockpit - could obviously save decent amount of weight with the Darimo cockpit. I really like the Roval cockpit though, and I'd wonder whether I'd be giving up any aero benefit by swapping
- thru axles - the Overfast axles save a small amount, but high cost for something that I'd worry about from a durability perspective
- wheels - I do have a set of Extralite C338, which drop 150g or so on the CRW wheels. I have experienced a few issues with them though, hence giving the CRWs a try as my 'all round' set (I have Roval Rapides as well).

by Weenie


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OtterSpace
Posts: 397
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:28 am
Location: California Silicon Valley

by OtterSpace

da123 wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2023 4:48 pm
- Chain - this is a good call, thanks, and I have considered this before. Only question is whether it will shift worse than DA? Not concerned about the longevity. Any thoughts?

Other areas I've looked at:

- cockpit - could obviously save decent amount of weight with the Darimo cockpit. I really like the Roval cockpit though, and I'd wonder whether I'd be giving up any aero benefit by swapping
- thru axles - the Overfast axles save a small amount, but high cost for something that I'd worry about from a durability perspective
- wheels - I do have a set of Extralite C338, which drop 150g or so on the CRW wheels. I have experienced a few issues with them though, hence giving the CRWs a try as my 'all round' set (I have Roval Rapides as well).
Shifting is very very slightly worse on YBN compared to Dura-Ace on my bike and I don't think many people would notice the change so I think its fairly easy to recommend. Out of the HG+ parts the chain certainly has the least contribution to shift quality with the cassette having the largest contribution followed by the Shimano chainrings which are a step above anything else out there for shifting performance but don't work with 5bolt spiders. I'd recommend picking up a YBN chain of your prefered color to add to a chain rotation scheme for your bike to help minimize wear and then decide which system you like more. It should save around 15g and the oil-slick or gold would look nice with this build.

Edit: To add to the above in terms of shifting quality even minor cage length differences between Ultegra and Dura-Ace was a more noticable change in shift quality vs the change from Shimano to YBN.

I've seen tons of problems with Extralite rims so I avoid them. I personally really like berd spokes for their feel out on the road. I build them up with extra spokes, 28/28 for disc, to mittigate lateral stiffness issues and they save a ton of weight. However many don't like the look of them for road bikes and front spoke aero will be impacted. You could try building just a rear wheel, where spoke aero is less important and comfort matters more, to see how you get on with them. Personally I love extralite 6bolt hubs and lightbicycle rims if you can get them to hit their stated weights.

As an owner of many Darimo parts the Nexus just doesn't look to be a very polished product compared to their other offerings or other competitors in Specialized and EXS. The transition between shapes just looks a bit off to me.

Agreed on the overfast.
Last edited by OtterSpace on Wed Dec 20, 2023 5:35 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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