45kph Ebike Rocketship - Scott Solace eRIDE 2023

Who are you (no off-topic talk please)

Moderators: MrCurrieinahurry, maxim809, Moderator Team

OtterSpace
Posts: 397
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:28 am
Location: California Silicon Valley

by OtterSpace

A minor update today capturing some small parts:

I already described how high $/g drove me to not upgrade to dura ace shifters, fd, and rd. However, I am incorporating small changes when they are under $3.50/g or if they improve component performance marginally. After the mods decribed in this post and earlier the expected difference in weight between direct mount but otherwise stock Dura-Ace R9270 and my Ultegra R8170 shifters and derailleurs is only 65.12g at an expected delta cost of $857 if I bought used Dura-Ace and sold my Ultegra after taxes, fees, and shipping ($13.16/g).

The items that improve shifting component performance have all been covered above which leaves some small parts to change to Ti.

Shifter Clamps:

The stock shifter clamp assemblies for Ultegra are 34.30g (19.52g for two steel bands, 6.66g for two bolts, 2*0.99g for washers, 2*3.07g for nuts)
Dura-Ace shifter clamp assemblies are 21.77g (10.09g for two ti bands, 3.90g for two bolts, 2*0.95g for washers, 2*2.94g for nuts)
My modified Dura-Ace shifter clamp assemblies are 16.99g (10.09g for two Dura-Ace Ti bands and 6.90g for two aftermarket Ti bolts, washers, and nuts)

Generally you can find used Dura-Ace shifter clamps and bolts for around $60 after shipping and taxes but I harvested mine from my old commuter bike. If you are open to buying aftermarket parts all that you need from it are the Ti clamps.

I purchased the rest of the Ti parts from Aliexpress so prices will vary a bit but I paid 25.53 shipped for two sets of RT120 ($12.77 for each set).

Total weight for these aftermarket parts is 6.90g for the lighter of the two sets. The heavier set was a bit under 7g.
risk shifter parts.jpg
Some other info to share in the research for this is that you can purchase a 13g shifter clamp assembly personally made by a forum member SQUICCHI for 90 pounds + shipping.

Unfortunately the very light Schmolke carbon shifter clamps are not compatible with most of the latest groupsets due to being wider than can fit in the shifter body clamp cutouts. Klaster_1 has a great writeup on them here, here, and here.

More to come on the braking side:
brakes.png

by Weenie


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TLN
Posts: 652
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:50 pm

by TLN

What's your subjective opinion on bike? Considering getting same bike, even though I'm on the opposite side: 100kg on 61cm (58/XL in Scott) frame.
I'm also in Bay area, and it seems that bike like that will turn most "boring" rides into pretty fun.
His: Orbea Orca OMX
Hers: Cannondale Synapse HM Disc

OtterSpace
Posts: 397
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:28 am
Location: California Silicon Valley

by OtterSpace

TLN wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2024 11:19 pm
What's your subjective opinion on bike? Considering getting same bike, even though I'm on the opposite side: 100kg on 61cm (58/XL in Scott) frame.
I'm also in Bay area, and it seems that bike like that will turn most "boring" rides into pretty fun.
Performance ebikes in general are insanely under engaged with in the road community which is a shame because to me they make more sense for road than anywhere else. On MTB you have to worry about spiking power more due to technical trail features and also trail erosion which are not the case for road riding.

At a high level this bike is a massive game changer for me and I can highly recommend bikes like it to anyone in the USA, where they are not restricted, provided that you are fine with the high price point and are fine with the bike depreciating as new better designs hopefully are launched.

I have a few nice bikes that I love to ride but I have a habit of pushing myself too hard on them which isn't the case on an ebike so my base training is far funner and rewarding now in many ways.

edit: I almost always ride at max assist. Sustainably riding at somewhere around 9w/kg for an hour and a half is very addicting so I ride a lot more now. Howerver the max assist is the same for all frame sizes and riders so heavier riders benifit less than smaller riders in w/kg terms. I just wish the CdA of the bike was better instead of the aero brick its fork and downtube are.

When I compare lunch rides I basically can do my normal loop plus all the side stuff for an extra 5 miles but 2x the climbing height in the same time which makes for a far funner ride without beating myself up.

The only real negative I've found is that it doesnt reward you for sustained riding in zones 4-5 so I make sure to still ride once a week on my other high end non ebikes to continue to appreciate the difficulty of climbing that the ebike smooths over. A good way to think about it is ebikes are like training on an ERG smart trainer mode which is great for training general fitness does not replicate truely spirited riding.

Almost all of my rides are solo but when I ride with others I generally take other bikes. However when I bring this bike I generally ride with minimum support and dont push the pace.

TLN
Posts: 652
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:50 pm

by TLN

OtterSpace wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2024 11:58 pm
TLN wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2024 11:19 pm
What's your subjective opinion on bike? Considering getting same bike, even though I'm on the opposite side: 100kg on 61cm (58/XL in Scott) frame.
I'm also in Bay area, and it seems that bike like that will turn most "boring" rides into pretty fun.
edit: I almost always ride at max assist. Sustainably riding at somewhere around 9w/kg for an hour and a half is very addicting so I ride a lot more now. Howerver the max assist is the same for all frame sizes and riders so heavier riders benifit less than smaller riders in w/kg terms. I just wish the CdA of the bike was better instead of the aero brick its fork and downtube are.

The only real negative I've found is that it doesnt reward you for sustained riding in zones 4-5 so I make sure to still ride once a week on my other high end non ebikes to continue to appreciate the difficulty of climbing that the ebike smooths over. A good way to think about it is ebikes are like training on an ERG smart trainer mode which is great for training general fitness does not replicate truely spirited riding.

Almost all of my rides are solo but when I ride with others I generally take other bikes. However when I bring this bike I generally ride with minimum support and dont push the pace.
Thanks for very detailed response, that sums it nicely.

At this point I got too many bikes, and I'd rather sell some before purchasing another one, but we'll see.
I'm not aiming at ultra-light weight (and there's no point with largest frame) but it's safe to say that I might get to 12.xx kg, with sub-1300gm wheels.

I'm not planning on selling my Orca and considering building Solace as "gravel" bike (but I was considering those LW wheels for "road" application). so I might add fat road wheels later on.
His: Orbea Orca OMX
Hers: Cannondale Synapse HM Disc

User avatar
Miller
Posts: 2821
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:54 pm
Location: Reading, UK

by Miller

Regarding Garmin data overlay, I notice that the new insta360 Ace action camera can export footage with Garmin data overlay via the insta360 app.

OtterSpace
Posts: 397
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:28 am
Location: California Silicon Valley

by OtterSpace

I completed my swap over to Campagnolo DB-F161 on my 12s Shimano hydro front.
Campag.jpg
This fork is a native 180 fork so I swapped over to a 180mm floating rotor too both of which I've been curious of as well for road riding with tons of spirited medium length high % active descents like we have in the bay area. However, I'll be honest I wouldn't have gone 180 initially if I wasnt forced to.

Why make this change at all? I just like tuning stuff to see what I like as a way of enjoying the hobby and as a way of keeping myself excited to ride more to test new things out. Performance on Shimano was fine but I've ran Shagura before (Shimano 11s + Magura MT8 FM) and I found it to be marginally better than stock Shimano 11s braking. While Shagura 11s performed better than Shimano 11s bleeding was trickier and Shimano increased their pad clearanace when they revised their design for 12s. I've always been curious if Shimano + Campagnolo would work given that so many people are big fans of Campagnolo calipers and they evolved from Magura MT8 FM and are mineral oil like Shimano.

The Campagnolo front caliper is nice because it doesnt require an adapter plate, and two additional bolts to fix it, like Shimano & SRAM which use "rear" 140 calipers for the front. It also is slimmer and more aero but you are a slave to your fork drilling which actually makes it impossible to use this caliper on a Tarmac SL8 or Aethos due to the non standard fork drilling on those bikes.
SL8 Campy 160.jpeg
Also I couldn't just leave the caliper alone given it uses steel bolts without flow passthrough so the bolts connecting the two sides, the hose compression bolt, the fork attachment bolts, and the pad bolts were all swapped to titanium.
Caliper.jpg
I have two "rear" 140 Campagnolo calipers (DB-EK140 which are the same as DB-R141 except for branding) too ready to swap over but decided to hold off for now until I make sure it rides well. These calipers would allow me to go back to a 160 front rotor as well if I find I want to swap that back. These were also bolt modded for the bolts that attach the two sides. The two bottom photos are of the two modded calipers while the top images are of the stock bolts that connect the two calipers halves and the titanium replacements (each caliper uses two bolts).
rear.PNG
I'll report back after I have more miles on it and plan on making a dedicated post on the road subforum once I have a more settled opinion on it.

I am completely fine if this experiment fails and will be honest about the experience as well.

:beerchug:

maldock
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2020 2:42 pm

by maldock

Fan of this thread as I love the detailed write up along with the attached pics.

I'm a fan of write ups and thought this ran similar to the lines of an aviation/ trip report thread I follow
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/trip-re ... -jl-f.html
(Hope this doesn't get removed if it's deemed unrelated to cycling by mods)

Just thought you should know.

Anyhow awaiting new quality of life bike updates!

jch3n
Posts: 216
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2016 8:34 pm

by jch3n

OtterSpace wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2024 5:19 am
While Shagura 11s performed better than Shimano 11s bleeding was trickier
What's tricky about the bleed? Got any tips or tricks?

(btw, I'm pretty sure I bought one of your MT4 calipers on eBay)

OtterSpace
Posts: 397
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:28 am
Location: California Silicon Valley

by OtterSpace

jch3n wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2024 7:05 pm
OtterSpace wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2024 5:19 am
While Shagura 11s performed better than Shimano 11s bleeding was trickier
What's tricky about the bleed? Got any tips or tricks?

(btw, I'm pretty sure I bought one of your MT4 calipers on eBay)
Nice.

The bleed on MT4 has two issues one inherent in the design without a flow cutoff port and the other comes from the bleed kits. Some people get lucky with the bleed kit they have so they dont run into the second issue.

For the flow cutoff you just have to bleed in a way where you can remove the bleed adapter and hose from the port on the caliper without introducing air. Fairly standard but annoying stuff just move the caliper to the top of the system before removing the bleed parts and attaching the bleed screw.

The bleed kit is the bigger issue. Most kits do Shimano parts well enough. However from what I experienced the Park Tools universal bleed kit is trash for Magura. Their bleed port adapter only has a few threads of engagement and an O ring and would leak terribly. The solution for that part is simple use the correct bleed port adapter sourced from Magura. If you were the one to buy mine I included the magura bleed adapter. In general I've learned that you should always try to start off using the recommended manufacturer bleed parts as I've tried more vendors calipers. The syringe and hose from the Magura kits work well but you could use others. On the Shimano end use whatever you have used for bleeds before as that end isnt changed.

However the Magura bleed block is trash and the worst I've ever used. They literally call it a transport device instead of a bleed block and it has no good cutouts for the pistons and is just a small amount of plastic. Camapagnolo makes the best one by far (their blue one) but I don't think the top part fits in magura even though the width will. Campagnolo uses Magura style pads, maybe the older version would work with Magura but I wouldn't risk it. Therefore for Magura I'd recommend using a universal solid plastic block to avoid the pistons pushing out too much during a bleed and overfilling the system.

Regarding barbs and olives I'd recommend using Shimano for your shifters. Either work but the Magura parts are longer and therefore harder to remove from the shifters if you use the Shimano compression shifter bolts from personal experience. I dont think everyone agrees on this point however so make your own decision. I've never had leaking issues on shigura.
magura.png
Campagnolo-UT-DB011_a.jpg
edit: got home and checked Magura with the Campag bleed block. It fits and the pistons are smaller than Campag 2nd gen Calipers so the Magura pistons fit the machined cutout in the Campag bleed block. I tried taking a picture of this but just cant show it. I havent tried bleeding this combo but expect it to work very well. Also the Campag bleed block is non magnetic so you dont have to worry about the Magura magnetic pistons attracting to the Campag bleed block.
bleed.jpg
maldock wrote:
Tue Apr 02, 2024 4:06 am
Fan of this thread as I love the detailed write up along with the attached pics.

I'm a fan of write ups and thought this ran similar to the lines of an aviation/ trip report thread I follow
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/trip-re ... -jl-f.html
(Hope this doesn't get removed if it's deemed unrelated to cycling by mods)

Just thought you should know.

Anyhow awaiting new quality of life bike updates!
Thanks for sharing I'll give it a read when I get a chance.

More to come in a few weeks. Most of my bike tinkering attention has been on my SL6 rim rebuild as of late. The next steps on this bike are to add the campag caliper to the rear, now that I've spent enough time with the front caliper and know I prefer it to Shimano, and finally go tubeless. I keep puncturing in ways tubeless would help mostly from small sharp metal on the side of roads with multiple lanes that get a lot of cars stirring up debris. This example from just yesterday. Tubeless should be easy on this bike but I early adopted tubless for road with 25mm tires pre Covid and didnt have a great time and then went back to tubes so I've been late to the party.
flat.jpg

RyanH
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by RyanH

I've been using the Campagnolo bleed kits with Magura and haven't had any issues.

OtterSpace
Posts: 397
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:28 am
Location: California Silicon Valley

by OtterSpace

RyanH wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2024 1:09 am
I've been using the Campagnolo bleed kits with Magura and haven't had any issues.
Good to know I'll make sure to capture that info when I type up my Shimano + Campag caliper experiences in the road forum.

----------

Spring is fully in the air here in the Bay Area of California and there are tons more people out and about. I love this time of year.

Additionally this week local schools are off for spring break and I ran into a zoomer bike gang on hilly roads for the first time.

I saw them coming up a big hill that I was heading down and they grouped together to go bomb some single track in a sleepy neighbourhood of 4-8 million dollar houses. I looped back around as part of my normal hilly 21 mile (~34km) hour & 10min lunch ride.

They are faster than you and will eventually be riding some of your local roads too. It might not be this year or the next 5 years but they are coming and they are faster than you if they are on an ebike.

Personally I love to see people out on bikes so I think the future is looking bright. At the top of the hill I said to have a good ride, they asked if I was on an ebike, I said yes, and then they complimented my TT helmet.

But as an FYI you might start to see more of this in the coming years.
zoomers3.png
zoomers4.png
zoomers5.png
Zoomers1.png
zoomers2.png
Last edited by OtterSpace on Tue Apr 09, 2024 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

OtterSpace
Posts: 397
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:28 am
Location: California Silicon Valley

by OtterSpace

I learned that not only can the service dongle be purchased by end users, for around $110, but also the TQ dealer portal currently allows end users to create accounts. At least for now... You have to phone in to home base to get the firmware so they can lock anyone out if they want in the future...

The part number is TQ Ebike Service Dongle - V01 and the dealer portal link currently is: https://www.tq-group.com/en/e-bike-portal/
TQ dongle.png
This is great as I purchased the bike used, like to do my own service, and have no clue how I'd go about finding a local bike shop who has this infrastructure let alone one I trust.

Unfortunately the tool is rather brainless. You can't really change any settings that you couldn't in the app. The only things it allows you to do is update firmware, help isolate failure codes, and print service reports to send to TQ. I got it just to update firmware so I'm still happy with the purchase, but I was kind of hoping for more... It does allow you to check battery health though which is nice and should be reported to the user in the app but isnt. Mine is currently at 91% battery health after 1 year of use from my service report.

I now ride 200 miles a week on this bike. Around half of that riding is commute miles, which are now up and down the real bike hills instead of the efficient SUV infested stroad route, and half 1-1.5hr normal rides all at max boost. I'm leaning towards getting the range extender, which adds 50% charge and mounts to a bottle cage, to move the commute miles battery wear off the main battery and just to have an extender just in case to extend usability. The cost of a range extender is similar to a new internal battery at around $600 after you buy all the needed cables and mounts. I regularly get down to 10% battery remaining from my climbing routes in 1hr 20mins of power on time, but I havent noticed wear impact on the battery yet. At 10% remaining the assistance goes down to a lower level of about 1/2 of max boost.

Here are some images from the service PC program. I dont see any way to change from Euro speed limits to USA limits thats likely locked behind some initial factory programming.

Main page:
TQ Service.png
Useless "bike settings" that you can just change in the app:
TQ Service2.png

OtterSpace
Posts: 397
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:28 am
Location: California Silicon Valley

by OtterSpace

I like to cover the bad along with the good. The worst thing with this bike has been creaking from multiple places which I can now comfortably say has been fixed for around 1,000 miles. It can be embarrassing to admit issues but hopefully this can help someone else.

The creaking came from 3 places the top tube wiring, the motor cover, and the seatpost.

Top tube wiring: This one was easy. It would rattle over some surfaces and over bumps. Once I noticed what was going on I bundled the wires, taped them with tesa tape, and added bubble wrap. Problem solved unfortunately I don't have a pre picture of the wiring mess. The previous owner stuffed some paper towels in this area so they knew of the issues but didn't successfully solve it.
top tube.PNG
Motor cover: Sounded like BB creak that would come and go with certain pedal loads and use cases. Basically the motor cover is just held with two bolts and then clips and interfaces on the frame in the front where it rubs and leaves witness marks. The motor cover on this bike doesnt add BB stiffness but it does prevent road grime and twigs from getting into the bike. I generally use the cover when it rains but not during the dry months to save ~60g. I'll have to find a better solution for when I use the cover again.
motor cover.PNG
Trek has a more specific full cover and BMC leaves the motor exposed but encapsulates it better so Scott's motor deployment definitely is the worst of the available options in this area.
others.PNG
Seatpost: This was the most annoying by far and I knew what the issue was but didnt want to deal with it because I initially snapped a seatpost clamp after installing to the rated torque while unloaded around 30 seconds after adjusting seatpost height. Adding to this Scott spare parts are very hard to get in general but are basically non existant in the USA so I had to order spare clamps from R2, wait a month for Scott to supply them to R2, and then a few weeks to get them from Germany all while still using the broken clamp. :unbelievable: During the time I ran the broken clamp I only commuted with the bike on fairly flat roads.

Due to this I used the replacement clamp without addressing the true issue for months. Basically the seatpost OD was too loose for the frame ID leaving too much work for the the small bolt and clamp to do which loads the carbon clamp too much and fractures out from the bolt hole to the top and bottom of the carbon clamp. A simple sacrificial shim on both sides of 3m wrap fixed the creak but it likely will come back and require service with time as this is a mitigation not a true fix. There are witness marks near the top of the portion in the frame on both left and right sides of the seatpost from rubbing that caused the creak.
seatpost.PNG
clamp.PNG

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