New Shimano XTR M9200?
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I expect this is one of those areas we're seeing the long-term impacts of the pandemic shut-downs (the odd fire) and repositioning of priorities from Shimano. They were like clockwork on their 4 year cycle, now XTR will have at least a six year gap.
It's shocking that it took them four years to release a GRX 12-speed update that was essentially just getting an XT RD and Cassette to work with all the same components from 11-speed GRX. They reclocked the shifter, put a barrel adjuster on the RD and presumably have a slightly reshaped chainring... that took four years.
And it's hard to argue that had anything to do with Shimano's insistence that products be perfect before they're brought to market, because all those products were effectively already on the market!
Shimano Deore and SLX are likely the only two groups that have a gap on SRAM's similar offerings for Mechanical groupsets. But SRAM has two entire families of product that sit above everything Shimano is offering. You have to wonder if SRAM would exist at all if Shimano weren't making what seem to be previously avoided mistakes.
The poor function and ergonomics of the 7900 generation of road opened the door for SRAM road. Shimano 9000 removed that gap entirely (likely put them ahead), but then underwhelming, 2x & 3x focused mountain groups let SRAM dominate that landscape, when their road specs (at least OEM) were drying up fast. Shimano finally releases amazing 1x groupsets in 2018 & 2019, but then SRAM AXS introduces an entirely new level and five years later, Shimano still isn't ready to compete in that area.
While SRAM dominated mountain specs in the mid-2010's, they used that time to bring the SRAM AXS road groups to market, which properly reestablished them on the road. And they've arguably been one step ahead of Shimano on electronic since then (Force before Ultegra, Rival before 105, etc). With Shimano's absence in the 12-speed electronic MTB groupset market, SRAM has developed transmissions to further move the top-end needle.
Sorry for the rant, but I suppose all that is to say that Shimano must know they're far behind on electronic MTB groupsets. There's also little doubt that it's a very important OEM market now, because bike companies seem to really enjoy selling $10,000 bikes, and it's hard to justify that without electronic shifting.
I really do hope whatever they launch has a cage lock though. Hard to believe how annoying it is removing a wheel without that once you're used to it.
It's shocking that it took them four years to release a GRX 12-speed update that was essentially just getting an XT RD and Cassette to work with all the same components from 11-speed GRX. They reclocked the shifter, put a barrel adjuster on the RD and presumably have a slightly reshaped chainring... that took four years.
And it's hard to argue that had anything to do with Shimano's insistence that products be perfect before they're brought to market, because all those products were effectively already on the market!
Shimano Deore and SLX are likely the only two groups that have a gap on SRAM's similar offerings for Mechanical groupsets. But SRAM has two entire families of product that sit above everything Shimano is offering. You have to wonder if SRAM would exist at all if Shimano weren't making what seem to be previously avoided mistakes.
The poor function and ergonomics of the 7900 generation of road opened the door for SRAM road. Shimano 9000 removed that gap entirely (likely put them ahead), but then underwhelming, 2x & 3x focused mountain groups let SRAM dominate that landscape, when their road specs (at least OEM) were drying up fast. Shimano finally releases amazing 1x groupsets in 2018 & 2019, but then SRAM AXS introduces an entirely new level and five years later, Shimano still isn't ready to compete in that area.
While SRAM dominated mountain specs in the mid-2010's, they used that time to bring the SRAM AXS road groups to market, which properly reestablished them on the road. And they've arguably been one step ahead of Shimano on electronic since then (Force before Ultegra, Rival before 105, etc). With Shimano's absence in the 12-speed electronic MTB groupset market, SRAM has developed transmissions to further move the top-end needle.
Sorry for the rant, but I suppose all that is to say that Shimano must know they're far behind on electronic MTB groupsets. There's also little doubt that it's a very important OEM market now, because bike companies seem to really enjoy selling $10,000 bikes, and it's hard to justify that without electronic shifting.
I really do hope whatever they launch has a cage lock though. Hard to believe how annoying it is removing a wheel without that once you're used to it.
Honestly, I hope that the next XTR 12 speeds groupset will... remain mechanical.
I can see the point to have an electronical groupset on a roadbike, not for mountainbike.
Integration ? come on, we are talking about 1 cable/housing whereas there are still 2 housings for the brakes, 1 or 2 for the suspensions remotes, dropper post... So 1 more, does it really matter ? I don't think so
Better shifting ? I tried the new AXS groupset and I prefer the shifting of my XTR : crisper and faster
Reliability ? uuuhh...no
Price? Hell no !
Weight ? No again
just my opinion
I can see the point to have an electronical groupset on a roadbike, not for mountainbike.
Integration ? come on, we are talking about 1 cable/housing whereas there are still 2 housings for the brakes, 1 or 2 for the suspensions remotes, dropper post... So 1 more, does it really matter ? I don't think so
Better shifting ? I tried the new AXS groupset and I prefer the shifting of my XTR : crisper and faster
Reliability ? uuuhh...no
Price? Hell no !
Weight ? No again
just my opinion
Can Shimano already be preparing the XTR Di2? For a long time there has been a patent related to the pushbuttons and with some changes......
At the moment it has the XT Di2 but for eBikes.......but new patents for pushbuttons are appearing....and a rear derailleur that would have a small removable battery and a port for connection to another battery.....
https://image-ppubs.uspto.gov/dirsearch ... f/11827307
derailleur images
At the moment it has the XT Di2 but for eBikes.......but new patents for pushbuttons are appearing....and a rear derailleur that would have a small removable battery and a port for connection to another battery.....
https://image-ppubs.uspto.gov/dirsearch ... f/11827307
derailleur images
- xtr2.jpg (29.63 KiB) Viewed 9232 times
- xtr.png (54.5 KiB) Viewed 9232 times
Shimano would be fools if they don't have a Di2 option well down the development pipe.
The launch of their 12 speed gravel offerings have effectively mirrored their mountain groupsets (GRX is XT with different cable routing and identical 10-45 or 10-51 cassettes in use), so a 12spd, off-road Di2 option for racing either discipline seems like a must for them to compete in these markets.
It's been ages since any mountain bikes were designed with considerations for a Di2 battery though, so the ability to attach it directly to the RD seems an important option to add.
The launch of their 12 speed gravel offerings have effectively mirrored their mountain groupsets (GRX is XT with different cable routing and identical 10-45 or 10-51 cassettes in use), so a 12spd, off-road Di2 option for racing either discipline seems like a must for them to compete in these markets.
It's been ages since any mountain bikes were designed with considerations for a Di2 battery though, so the ability to attach it directly to the RD seems an important option to add.
For me, most Shimano brakes are decent overall, good for the price.
Except the latest gen XTR Race caliper which use road pads...
All other 2 piston Shimano brake (old XTR, all XT, SLX, Deore, etc.) use 2 piston mtb size pads which perform fine. But then M9100 XTR Race use road size pad which overheat and wear down too fast on mtb ride.
But if you want to avoid that by getting XTR Trail brakes instead of XTR Race brakes, that gain so much weight I'd just go for Formula Cura X instead. It's some of the strongest 2 piston brakes (next to Hayes Dominion T2 and A2 and Trickstuff Piccola). And its sibling Formula Cura 2 is also the last 2 piston brake that won downhill world cup. The Cura X is just Cura 2 with upgraded Kevlar hose and use carbon fiber lever to save weight.
This XTR Race brake and the XTR cassette's lack of durability seems to be a theme for Shimano MTB at the moment. Their low end stuff is very competitive/ hard to beat. But once you go up the market to XTR level, there are better options out there.
Yes, for light Trail or All Mountain builds that are high end but not in the Trickstuff budget, I use current gen XTR 9120 Trail levers with the last gen XTR 9020 Trail calipers (except on frames that need the hose on the right, then the rear becomes a XT 8100 caliper).
I have the last gen XTR 9000 Race brakes on my XC bike because they're pretty light and use normal Shimano 2-piston mountain pads. They really messed up with the new tiny Race calipers and their road pads.
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OnTheRivet
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- Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:41 pm
Shimano is still very much a Japanese company and the typical hierarchy management style means they are slow to respond to industry trends. They need to let the California office run the mtb development again like they did in in the 90's with the XTR M950 groupset and get rid of the long lead times on new development.
Still nothing? This the most absurd late-release of any XTR grouppo by a looooong shot. Shimano should consider closing the XTR line at this point. Everyone who wants to be uber competitive may have switched already.
I really can't believe it. As someone who has mixed and matched, bought and sold XTR parts by the hundreds since 8-spd titanium parts arrived in the early 90s, I'm completely dumb-founded Shimano would do this.
I'm on XTR 9000 Di2 for as long as I can but I might be done in a year. The other half of my fleet is on SRAM XX1 and I have a SRAM XX1 AXS grouppo in stock.
Oh... and I'm not going back to cable shifting if I can help it. Well... maybe on my fat bike for winter.
Eric in Rapid City, SD
A not-so-surprising tidbit in Mike Kazimer's latest opinion piece about MTB frames going wireless-only:
"There's also the fact that a wireless-only frame currently forces riders to choose a drivetrain from either SRAM or, well, SRAM – Shimano still hasn't responded with a wireless drivetrain of their own, which limits customer choice. My semi-educated guess is that the bike companies who have already launched wireless-only frames expected to be able to offer both SRAM and Shimano drivetrains by this point, but delays forced the release of those frames before Shimano had anything to contribute."
Definitely not the story we want, and it's hard to imagine the delays that left Shimano without anything to offer their four MTB medalists at the Games, but it's good to have reinforcement that something has been in the works. Surely they can't afford to miss another year...
Edit to add link to article - https://www.pinkbike.com/news/opinion-d ... frame.html
"There's also the fact that a wireless-only frame currently forces riders to choose a drivetrain from either SRAM or, well, SRAM – Shimano still hasn't responded with a wireless drivetrain of their own, which limits customer choice. My semi-educated guess is that the bike companies who have already launched wireless-only frames expected to be able to offer both SRAM and Shimano drivetrains by this point, but delays forced the release of those frames before Shimano had anything to contribute."
Definitely not the story we want, and it's hard to imagine the delays that left Shimano without anything to offer their four MTB medalists at the Games, but it's good to have reinforcement that something has been in the works. Surely they can't afford to miss another year...
Edit to add link to article - https://www.pinkbike.com/news/opinion-d ... frame.html
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What I find most ironic is that Shimano is so far behind Sram in the MTB world, that now Sram is sort of working backwards to fill in the gaps, and will be releasing yet another groupset before Shimano gets around to it. This time Transmission Mechanical, which is certainly more of a direct competitor to the XTR 9100 mechanical that is still currently Shimano's top tier MTB drivetrain. I'm a Shimano fan, but as I've stated, they don't make it easy when you're just left wanting for so long.
