2023 Epic Evo - 9.26kg with pedals

[Yoln]

Hi, still pretty new to this (MTB) side of the forum,

I am looking for a solid XC bike that I would get second hand as a starting point of a new lightweight build (sub 22lbs is the first goal). Initial budget ~$5500, with potentially up to $2k in upgrades (probably a handmade wheelset targeting 1150g for the pair that would cost me about ~$1200, and $800 of miscelianous depending on what is the starting point).

I am eying towards mostly two bikes in the same ballpark:
- Spesh EPIC Evo
- Orbea Oiz M TR

The idea being about 120mm travel front, 110 or 120 rear, achiveable sub 22lbs within the budget.

Happy to have any feedback on these first few thoughts, and any comparative feedbacks between the two bikes.


Edit October 21 2022

[prebsy]

if your goal is just weight the epic evo is a great place to start. It's by far the lightest frame and when you factor in things like remotes for bikes like the oiz, spark etc that gap grows even greater. Dependent on terrain your best upgrades are just skimping on stuff.... no dropper scant tires maybe even a smaller cassette. In order your best bang for you buck will likely be bar, grips, tires, saddle, pedals, cassette, brakes, rotors, cranks, wheels(biggest weight loss), fork.

9.9kg is pretty aggressive but an epic evo is a great starting point.

[fizzaz]

With modern bikes, I don't think 9.9kg is going to be attainable as a fully. Maybe a hardtail. But after like 10.5 its really diminishing returns anyways with the things you will give up.

[Yoln]

With modern bikes, I don't think 9.9kg is going to be attainable as a fully. Maybe a hardtail. But after like 10.5 its really diminishing returns anyways with the things you will give up.

This guys has a Oiz M Pro at 8.8kg here without much compromise : https://light-bikes.fr/viewtopic.php?t=3797

And same dude has an Epic evo at 8.7kg here, with a reduced rear travel for geometry goals (not much weight reduction coming from it) : https://light-bikes.fr/viewtopic.php?t=4067

So I feel like 1kg heavier than both of those is definitely attainable, with a some cheaper and sturdier choices.

[Yoln]

if your goal is just weight the epic evo is a great place to start. It's by far the lightest frame and when you factor in things like remotes for bikes like the oiz, spark etc that gap grows even greater. Dependent on terrain your best upgrades are just skimping on stuff.... no dropper scant tires maybe even a smaller cassette. In order your best bang for you buck will likely be bar, grips, tires, saddle, pedals, cassette, brakes, rotors, cranks, wheels(biggest weight loss), fork.

9.9kg is pretty aggressive but an epic evo is a great starting point.

Thanks, what is your thought on a 2020 Epic Evo versus a 2022?

[req110]

9.9kg with 120mm/110mm travel would mean that you have to use rigid seatpost and/or very light tires, which will decrease potence of bike.

[fizzaz]

With modern bikes, I don't think 9.9kg is going to be attainable as a fully. Maybe a hardtail. But after like 10.5 its really diminishing returns anyways with the things you will give up.

This guys has a Oiz M Pro at 8.8kg here without much compromise : https://light-bikes.fr/viewtopic.php?t=3797

And same dude has an Epic evo at 8.7kg here, with a reduced rear travel for geometry goals (not much weight reduction coming from it) : https://light-bikes.fr/viewtopic.php?t=4067

So I feel like 1kg heavier than both of those is definitely attainable, with a some cheaper and sturdier choices.

The Orbea is a decent example but not the epic evo. He isn't running tubeless and has some exotic carbon that I just don't deem realistic for a mtb build. Sure, he did hit a low weight, but he gave up a lot to do it.

[Hexsense]

Tires and wheel for weight weenies and still capable XC/downcountry build:

Rear tire:
Out right speed : Kenda Rush Pro TR 2.2 at 525g... it's still grippier than Maxxis Aspens and Continental Race King.
More grip in dry : Kenda Booster Pro TR 2.2 at 589 or 2.4 at 624g. It has more grip than Kenda Rush for 99% of the time. Except when it's packed with mud. Booster Pro have more narrow void to pack mud in than the wider open Rush Pro.

Front tire:
Grippy for safety on wet road: Kenda Karma 2 2.2 at 595g or 2.4 at 691g
Speedy but sketchier in wet: Specialized S-works Fasttrak T5/T7 2.35 at 615g

For wheel: Stick with 30mm internal width.
Farsports have some light XC wheels at that width.
For some reason, Light-bicycle XC wheels are 25mm. And anything wider are built tougher for trail/AM.
Other than that, Specialized Roval Control isn't a bad deal either.

[Hexsense]

Orbea is due to update very soon.
The geometry will change a lot to match the competitors (especially the head tube angle).

I think Epic Evo is the right choice if you can get any deal below MSRP. It's still carry Specialized Price.
Alternative light frames are :
-"Intense Sniper XC" or "Intense 951 XC". It has more anti-squat than Epic Evo, so without a lock out. It bob less when you pedal but can be tiring and you don't truely get a supple rear suspension.
-Fezzari Signal Peak. This is light and cheap in both frameset and build options, but the suspension kinematic is tuned toward more cush ride (Horst link, with a bit lower lower-pivot-point). It benefit from adding remote lockout.
-Canyon Lux Trail is not terrible at that price range too.

[prebsy]

I have a sniper xc that has been replaced with the new spark rc. Size large 2200g with shock axle hanger collar confirmed weight. it's not bad at all but if an epic evo is hitting it's claimed weights it's a much lighter option.

I'm not sure i ever stripped down my lux cf but it definitely didn't build up light

[smartyiak]

Since you're looking at second hand, the old Scott Spark RC tends to be a pretty light frameset.

[Hexsense]

I have a sniper xc that has been replaced with the new spark rc. Size large 2200g with shock axle hanger collar confirmed weight. it's not bad at all but if an epic evo is hitting it's claimed weights it's a much lighter option.

I'm not sure i ever stripped down my lux cf but it definitely didn't build up light

Indeed.
Epic Evo's design is as light as it gets.
Epic, Orbea and Canyon use linkage driven single pivot with flex seatstay. And Epic Evo is the lightest of the bunch. The less lateral stiffness of Epic doesn't matter to non clydesdale cyclist.
Scott Spark is not bad. But it heavy rely on shock lockout to be efficient. The 2017 Scott Spark's anti-squat value weirdly optimized for 28T front ring. It's less efficient with bigger front chainring. Riders with bigger chainring can get away with low anti-squat via the reliant of remote lockout.
https://linkagedesign.blogspot.com/2016 ... -2017.html
compare to higher anti-squat Epic Evo (with bigger chainring):
https://linkagedesign.blogspot.com/2021 ... -2021.html

Cannondale Scalpel use linkage driven single pivot with flex chainstay. It have some characteristics (less brake squat) more like horst link than regular single pivot design, without weight penalty of real horst link. https://linkagedesign.blogspot.com/2021 ... -2021.html
Sniper XC has virtual pivot rear suspension design for more efficient rear suspension with no lockout required. https://linkagedesign.blogspot.com/2018 ... -2019.html
Fezzari Signal Peak use horst link design. But still managed to be really light. However, its kinematic is tuned more toward the good riding side rather than stiff and efficent side. Opposite to Sniper XC and Oiz.

Santa Cruz Blur TR is just too expensive for its spec.

EDIT: I got flex seatstay and flex chainstay reversed. Fixed.

[Yoln]

I have a sniper xc that has been replaced with the new spark rc. Size large 2200g with shock axle hanger collar confirmed weight. it's not bad at all but if an epic evo is hitting it's claimed weights it's a much lighter option.

I'm not sure i ever stripped down my lux cf but it definitely didn't build up light

Indeed.
Epic Evo's design is as light as it gets.
Epic, Orbea and Canyon use linkage driven single pivot with flex chainstay. And Epic Evo is the lightest of the bunch. The less lateral stiffness of Epic doesn't matter to non clydesdale cyclist.
Scott Spark is not bad. But it heavy rely on shock lockout to be efficient. The 2017 Scott Spark's anti-squat value weirdly optimized for 28T front ring. It's less efficient with bigger front chainring. Riders with bigger chainring can get away with low anti-squat via the reliant of remote lockout.
https://linkagedesign.blogspot.com/2016 ... -2017.html
compare to higher anti-squat Epic Evo (with bigger chainring):
https://linkagedesign.blogspot.com/2021 ... -2021.html

Cannondale Scalpel use linkage driven single pivot with flex seatstay. It have some characteristics (less brake squat) more like horst link than regular single pivot design, without weight penalty of real horst link. https://linkagedesign.blogspot.com/2021 ... -2021.html
Sniper XC has virtual pivot rear suspension design for more efficient rear suspension with no lockout required. https://linkagedesign.blogspot.com/2018 ... -2019.html
Fezzari Signal Peak use horst link design. But still managed to be really light. However, its kinematic is tuned more toward the good riding side rather than stiff and efficent side. Opposite to Sniper XC and Oiz.

Santa Cruz Blur TR is just too expensive for its spec.

Thank you so much Hexense! Went down the rabbit hole on a couple of the topics you mentioned. I need to learn a lot more before being able to make an educated decision, but thanks for guiding me in the right direction!

At the moment I only find deals on Orbea Oiz M TR 2022 (very very good deal on a M pro already close to 10kg) and Scott Spark RC 2021.

Unfortunately the Epic evo seems the best choice, but also very difficult to source. I might just have to wait for a while...

Why exactly would you not recommend the current Oiz asside from the head-tube angle? Also, I see Oiz's headtube angle being 68 vs 67.5 for the epic, is it that big of a deal breaker?

[Hexsense]

Note: I just saw that I typed flexed chainstay and flexed seatstay reversed in original version of my post. It is fixed.

Back to topic,
Epic HTA is 67.5 degree but Epic Evo is 66.5. Scott Spark 2022 is 65.8. IMO 65-67.5 is a good range to aim for. HTA is one thing. But there are two more things I don't like on Oiz. One is another legit geometry concern, another is just the preference on suspension design.

Geometry concern: The reach of Oiz is short. Modern geometry likes the frame reach to be longer and compensate with shorter stem. The bike is more stable/safer this way.
To put into perspective,
Oiz Tr size M have reach=425.
Scott Spark 2022 size M have reach=440mm
Epic is 445, Epic Evo 435, etc.

Suspension preference: Oiz have excessive anti squat value at high gears. https://linkagedesign.blogspot.com/2019 ... 9.html?m=1

While anti squat value at 32x50t gear is 105% which is good, the anti squat at 32x10t gear is 162%. I used to like bike with high anti squat. But not anymore. With that amount of anti squat (well over 130%), the rear suspension stiffen up and even rise when you apply power. So, when pedaling through lots of roots the rear suspension won't actively soak up the bumps. It's a trade off for bike that is highly efficient without reliant on suspension lockout. Yet, they still provide remote lockout with the Oiz.

I'd rather ride bike that has lower anti-squat and then lockout when needed than to ride bike with excessive anti squat value. Or at least, find one that have consistent anti squat across all gears close to 100%. Epic Evo is like this, 91-94% anti-squat on all gears from 32x10t to 32x50t. Santa Cruz Blur has 95-106%. Excellent also. Old and new Scott Spark anti squat is lower as it design to be used with remote lockout and they want open mode to be extra active.
But that's just me. There are a lot of people that prefer anti squat value even more excessively high. Intense Sniper XC has even higher anti squat and people still like it.

[snaxez]

Here is an 120mm Oiz under 8kg. No dropper post and 2.25 Thunder burts, but still nice weight.