2023 Epic Evo - 9.26kg with pedals

Discuss light weight issues concerning mountain bikes & parts.

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Yoln
Posts: 965
Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:26 pm

by Yoln

Hexsense wrote:
Thu Oct 13, 2022 6:11 am
Note: I just saw that I typed flexed chainstay and flexed seatstay reversed in original version of my post. It is fixed.

Back to topic,
Epic HTA is 67.5 degree but Epic Evo is 66.5. Scott Spark 2022 is 65.8. IMO 65-67.5 is a good range to aim for. HTA is one thing. But there are two more things I don't like on Oiz. One is another legit geometry concern, another is just the preference on suspension design.

Geometry concern: The reach of Oiz is short. Modern geometry likes the frame reach to be longer and compensate with shorter stem. The bike is more stable/safer this way.
To put into perspective,
Oiz Tr size M have reach=425.
Scott Spark 2022 size M have reach=440mm
Epic is 445, Epic Evo 435, etc.

Suspension preference: Oiz have excessive anti squat value at high gears. https://linkagedesign.blogspot.com/2019 ... 9.html?m=1

While anti squat value at 32x50t gear is 105% which is good, the anti squat at 32x10t gear is 162%. I used to like bike with high anti squat. But not anymore. With that amount of anti squat (well over 130%), the rear suspension stiffen up and even rise when you apply power. So, when pedaling through lots of roots the rear suspension won't actively soak up the bumps. It's a trade off for bike that is highly efficient without reliant on suspension lockout. Yet, they still provide remote lockout with the Oiz.

I'd rather ride bike that has lower anti-squat and then lockout when needed than to ride bike with excessive anti squat value. Or at least, find one that have consistent anti squat across all gears close to 100%. Epic Evo is like this, 91-94% anti-squat on all gears from 32x10t to 32x50t. Santa Cruz Blur has 95-106%. Excellent also. Old and new Scott Spark anti squat is lower as it design to be used with remote lockout and they want open mode to be extra active.
But that's just me. There are a lot of people that prefer anti squat value even more excessively high. Intense Sniper XC has even higher anti squat and people still like it.
Thank you very much

The most concerning part is definitely the anti-squat at 32-18 and above. I don't really mind at 32-10 as I'd lock the rear anyways for sprinting, but the sweet-spot 32-18 (about 20 kph at 83rpm) to 32-14 is potentially annoying. Though I am not sure how much discomfort would be an anti-squat of 130-140?
Litespeed Gravel Ultimate : https://tinyurl.com/zvxxy8zk
Wilier “Cento Ramato“ : https://tinyurl.com/29vs8vre
#RETIRED# Lynskey “the Do-it-all Helix” 🧬:https://tinyurl.com/bdmb5y24

by Weenie


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Yoln
Posts: 965
Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:26 pm

by Yoln

Also, any Rolling Resistance data about the Kendra tires you mentioned?

And also, any opinion on a 2019 Epic Evo vs the 2022 we're talking about in terms of geo (looks pretty good from my point of view looking at limkeage design data for the non-Evo 2019 version)? In terms of weight it seems decently heavier (a good 150 to 200gr difference in a size L seems like).
Last edited by Yoln on Thu Oct 13, 2022 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

xcl
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:26 pm

by xcl

Yoln wrote:
Thu Oct 13, 2022 2:57 pm
Also, any Rolling Resistance data about the Kendra tires you mentioned?
Also interested, mainly with how the rr compares to a Aspen or Race King

Yoln
Posts: 965
Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:26 pm

by Yoln

xcl wrote:
Thu Oct 13, 2022 3:50 pm
Yoln wrote:
Thu Oct 13, 2022 2:57 pm
Also, any Rolling Resistance data about the Kendra tires you mentioned?
Also interested, mainly with how the rr compares to a Aspen or Race King
Exactly, not absolute values, but comparable methodology relative value (to fast-track and ground-control as well)
Litespeed Gravel Ultimate : https://tinyurl.com/zvxxy8zk
Wilier “Cento Ramato“ : https://tinyurl.com/29vs8vre
#RETIRED# Lynskey “the Do-it-all Helix” 🧬:https://tinyurl.com/bdmb5y24

Hexsense
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by Hexsense

IMO:
Anti Squat up to 130% is desirable. Anything more become excessive and is annoying. But not really ruining the bike. Even with stiffen up rear suspension, it's still way more active than hard tail afterall. Also, anti-squat only make any effect when you pedal. If you go through a short rough section, you can just freewheel through it.

Tire speed ranking that I've experienced:
Race King > Kenda Rush | Specialized Renegade > (a gap) > Kenda Booster > Specialized Fast Trak > (a noticeable gap) > Kenda Karma 2 | Ground Control.

I haven't tried Aspens. But from other people's feedback, Aspens is between Rush and Booster.

Another fast and light tire is Specialized Renegade. But similar to Fast Trak, even though the center knobs aren't bad, I find their side knobs too small. The tire is too round for my liking without big side knobs. And I feel the lack of it when leaning the bike to corner. Aspens and Rush both still have a good size side knobs.

I can't really tell for certain if Ground Control or Karma 2 roll faster, but Karma 2 weight a lot less.
They design with a bit different goal though. Ground Control has big continuous knobs, it is an all round, more grip in dry and still roll fast. Karma 2 emphasize mud clearance (high void). Function like Forekaster with lower knobs and weight less.

Yoln
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by Yoln

Hexsense wrote:
Thu Oct 13, 2022 4:18 pm
Thank you!

Any thoughts on Epic Evo 2019 vs Oiz M TR 2022?
Litespeed Gravel Ultimate : https://tinyurl.com/zvxxy8zk
Wilier “Cento Ramato“ : https://tinyurl.com/29vs8vre
#RETIRED# Lynskey “the Do-it-all Helix” 🧬:https://tinyurl.com/bdmb5y24

Hexsense
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by Hexsense

How about selecting one based on your preferred chainring size?
If it's 34t then Oiz. If it's 30 then Evo.

If it's 32t: Do you like it less firm or stiffer and more efficient?
For less firm, Epic Evo 2019. It seems to have excellent anti-squat value with 30t chainring. And slightly lower with 32t chainring.
For stiffer and more efficient, Oiz M TR. It has more anti-squat with 32t chainring. But you can reduce it down with 34t chainring as well.

Any good deal on Cannondale Scalpel SE?

tonytourist
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by tonytourist

The 2019 Epic Evo is a completely different bike than the 2022. 2019 uses the brain shock, 120/100. The current generation Evo is much better, with modern geometry. Here's my Epic from that generation with a SC34 120 and dropper to convert it to the Evo spec. I've also have a 2015 Epic World Cup and the current Epic Evo.
Image
Image

Hexsense
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Location: USA

by Hexsense

Old Evo also has brain?
Oh, that's good.

I'm saying it as an owner of 2021 Epic (not Evo) with brain. It's harsh and clunky. But I sign up for its ride when I bought it.
Brain harshness isn't the same as excessive anti-squat stiffness.

zscs
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Location: Hungary

by zscs

Hexsense wrote:
Wed Oct 12, 2022 4:58 pm
Tires and wheel for weight weenies and still capable XC/downcountry build:

Rear tire:
Out right speed : Kenda Rush Pro TR 2.2 at 525g... it's still grippier than Maxxis Aspens and Continental Race King.
More grip in dry : Kenda Booster Pro TR 2.2 at 589 or 2.4 at 624g. It has more grip than Kenda Rush for 99% of the time. Except when it's packed with mud. Booster Pro have more narrow void to pack mud in than the wider open Rush Pro.

Front tire:
Grippy for safety on wet road: Kenda Karma 2 2.2 at 595g or 2.4 at 691g
Speedy but sketchier in wet: Specialized S-works Fasttrak T5/T7 2.35 at 615g

For wheel: Stick with 30mm internal width.
Farsports have some light XC wheels at that width.
For some reason, Light-bicycle XC wheels are 25mm. And anything wider are built tougher for trail/AM.
Other than that, Specialized Roval Control isn't a bad deal either.
thanks for the info! :thumbup:
During the years I used Maxxis Aspen 2.1 tires at rear, both on XC hardtaim and the fully I had 2 years ago. Weight was 610-620 grams range for all the four I used so far. Very durable tire in 2C EXO. In wet weather it tends to behave like the slippery tires but otherwise a really good choice, especially if someone does MTB rides very often so durability really counts.

I had Thunter Burt 2.1 SnakeSkin TLE tires as well, for example these were mine: https://gewichte.mtb-news.de/product-15 ... -snakeskin
Yes, the 527 and 560g weight are super light! The durability and puncture protection in an another story. I've never had that much tubeless punctures like I had with those Thunder Burts. Important to mention, the new Thunder Burt tires (MY 2022) are much more resistant to puctures - but on the other side, weights 660-670 grams (I have 3 currently in size 2.25).
Just bought a pair of 2.2 Continental Race King ProTection (Black Chili) and I'm super curious, because those are quite light (~595-620g) and the last time I had Race Kings there were super durable as well (okay, that was 5 years ago - hopefully Conti haven't changed it too much since then). Race King weights: https://gewichte.mtb-news.de/search?q=r ... protection

New bikes comes with wide tires nowadays. I ordered the new 2022 Canyon Lux CFR LTD and Canyon will send it with 2.35 3C TR EXO Maxxis Ikons, which are on the side of heaviest XC tires (~750g or even more). So changing them back to e.g. Race Kings will save me almost 300 grams immediately. Canyon Exceed hardtails also equipped with 2.35 wide Maxxis tires and other brands use similar approach nowadays, to be honest I don't really understand why. (In overall, the inner rim width increase in the industry, maybe?)

OnTheRivet
Posts: 732
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:41 pm

by OnTheRivet

Hexsense wrote:
Wed Oct 12, 2022 4:58 pm
Tires and wheel for weight weenies and still capable XC/downcountry build:

Rear tire:
Out right speed : Kenda Rush Pro TR 2.2 at 525g... it's still grippier than Maxxis Aspens and Continental Race King.
More grip in dry : Kenda Booster Pro TR 2.2 at 589 or 2.4 at 624g. It has more grip than Kenda Rush for 99% of the time. Except when it's packed with mud. Booster Pro have more narrow void to pack mud in than the wider open Rush Pro.

Front tire:
Grippy for safety on wet road: Kenda Karma 2 2.2 at 595g or 2.4 at 691g
Speedy but sketchier in wet: Specialized S-works Fasttrak T5/T7 2.35 at 615g

For wheel: Stick with 30mm internal width.
Farsports have some light XC wheels at that width.
For some reason, Light-bicycle XC wheels are 25mm. And anything wider are built tougher for trail/AM.
Other than that, Specialized Roval Control isn't a bad deal either.

30mm internal width rims are just adding unnecessary weight for no gain with XC width tires. In fact they can square some XC tires up too much.

Hexsense
Posts: 3269
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Location: USA

by Hexsense

zscs wrote:
Fri Oct 14, 2022 1:17 pm

New bikes comes with wide tires nowadays. I ordered the new 2022 Canyon Lux CFR LTD and Canyon will send it with 2.35 3C TR EXO Maxxis Ikons, which are on the side of heaviest XC tires (~750g or even more). So changing them back to e.g. Race Kings will save me almost 300 grams immediately. Canyon Exceed hardtails also equipped with 2.35 wide Maxxis tires and other brands use similar approach nowadays, to be honest I don't really understand why. (In overall, the inner rim width increase in the industry, maybe?)
Wide tire trend is the result of pro testing all the combos and found interesting results.
Currently, the consensus is:
1) in wet mud, keep using 2.2 tire with knobs like we used to do. Wider tire doesn't help in mud.

2) but in dry, rather than use low knob 2.2 at moderate pressure, the semi-slick 2.4 is faster and provide similar grip level.
Like, Aspen 2.4 at 16psi is faster than Rekon Race 2.2 at 20psi and even grip better (in dry). But then, with wide thin casing tire at low pressure, it now require wider rim to give tire the stability it needs to not fold over or burp air when cornering hard. There you go, rim gets wide too.
Nino Schurter started this strategy and it is widely adopted now.
https://youtu.be/43ruZxBIi2w

However, XC bike that come stock from bike shop with 2.4 tires with big knobs are really overkill for XC race. The whole point is to go up in tire size and go down in knob size. Though, I think it's not a bad idea to spec too much grip by default. Racers who can handle faster, lighter tires will switch the tire anyway. But beginner are more likely to use stock tire to build up their skills.

Yoln
Posts: 965
Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:26 pm

by Yoln

Thank you all guys for the great inputs.

Pulled the trigger on a 2022 epic evo frame.

I'll update the topic with a parts-sheet in the coming days, probably seeking for advices again :)

Quick one for anyone who knows though, any weight differences between sworks and regular spesh frame?
Litespeed Gravel Ultimate : https://tinyurl.com/zvxxy8zk
Wilier “Cento Ramato“ : https://tinyurl.com/29vs8vre
#RETIRED# Lynskey “the Do-it-all Helix” 🧬:https://tinyurl.com/bdmb5y24

js
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Location: Canada

by js

I believe the difference was listed as 100g between the two (so the regular Epic Evo is still lighter than the S-Works Epic), but they never really said what size that was for. I'm riding an XL though and can tell you it's been a great bike... except the cable routing.

by Weenie


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Yoln
Posts: 965
Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:26 pm

by Yoln

js wrote:
Wed Oct 19, 2022 2:22 pm
I believe the difference was listed as 100g between the two (so the regular Epic Evo is still lighter than the S-Works Epic), but they never really said what size that was for. I'm riding an XL though and can tell you it's been a great bike... except the cable routing.
Thanks! Cable routing for rear derailleur, Brake hoses, or lockout hoses? Or all ?:) asking because I'm debating between xx1 mechanical, vs axs, vs xtr. Obviously if mech routing is a pain, I might lean towards electronic, even though I'm generally a mech guy
Litespeed Gravel Ultimate : https://tinyurl.com/zvxxy8zk
Wilier “Cento Ramato“ : https://tinyurl.com/29vs8vre
#RETIRED# Lynskey “the Do-it-all Helix” 🧬:https://tinyurl.com/bdmb5y24

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