Cervelo ZHT-5

[kervelo]

Cervelo mtb:
https://www.cervelo.com/en-GB/bikes/zht-5

[ConfusedRob]

Nice looking bike, apparently Milan Vader will be it riding next year. Assume they have plans to bring a full suspension frame to the market soon if they're targeting WC XCO.

[DanW]

I don't want to be the critical one, but it has a lot in common with open mold Chinese frames IMO. Very, very conservative geo and quite a lot of stack for a given reach value IMO

[Hexsense]

I don't want to be the critical one, but it has a lot in common with open mold Chinese frames IMO. Very, very conservative geo and quite a lot of stack for a given reach value IMO

Yeah, geometry is exactly what I don't want. I want 66.5 deg HTA, not 69 degree. I want long reach with low stack (like 450mm reach, 595mm stack), not the other way around (tall stack for short reach).
But I'm not a pro, so I don't think my preference would align with what pro demand for the race course that hardtail make sense.

[scant]

angles look okay, its the cables through the headset bearing that annoys me.

[RDY]

Can't see any MTBers buying this. Also per the Factor / Allied FS bikes. They're looking to suck up money from brand-whore roadies who want to get into MTB.

[Karvalo]

It is bang in the same front end geo region as an Epic HT, Scale or Procaliber. There are a few longer/slacker hardtail race bikes out there like the Twostroke but making out like this is super conservative and outdated is not accurate.

[bikewithnoname]

Can't see any MTBers buying this. Also per the Factor / Allied FS bikes. They're looking to suck up money from brand-whore roadies who want to get into MTB.

Couldn't have put it better myself.

[js]

I think Cervelo could have done themselves a favour by waiting to launch this bike with a full-suspension bike (that they're presumably bringing to market soon if they're serious about supporting XC racing). Without it, the idea of releasing a "full-on race weapon", that doesn't actually get raced on any of the World Cup courses this year... well, it feels like they don't really have a good idea of what mountain biking is anymore.

I also laugh that they mention people wanting a more relaxed head angle could swap up to a 130mm fork. Given the change that would make to seat angle and BB height, I can't how anyone would prefer that set-up.

Having said all that, I am aware that a hardtail won two rainbows this year, ableit one with a 67 degree head angle.

[jfranci3]

I don't understand this at all. They could have repainted a Santa Cruz or Cannondale or Open and everyone would have been been cool with that. I mean, it's basically an F-si with a different seat tube ready for a taller fork. Maybe this was a scrapped project by someone.

[DanW]

It is bang in the same front end geo region as an Epic HT, Scale or Procaliber. There are a few longer/slacker hardtail race bikes out there like the Twostroke but making out like this is super conservative and outdated is not accurate.

Same as the status quo is conservative. I.e. nothing unique or interesting.

If we are talking HTA, Scalpel HT is 67 (66.5 with a 110mm Lefty), Twostroke is 67, Unno is 67 so there are some slacker but not many. BMC are the only ones getting close to what is probably better and surprisingly (helped by mighty fine riders) they are racking up a ton of wins. But yes, not a lot of alternatives for hardtails.

The funny thing is the full suspension frames most XCO elite riders are on are 67 degree HTA or just under (eg Fourstroke, Spark, Podium) which is more like a 66 hardtail given the sag differences. The geo changes haven't really carried through to hardtails.

Most of these slightly slacker XC frames mess it up somewhere else though like the Scalpel HT having such a short reach for a given stack. So slacker HTA yes, but you still need a longer stem relatively speaking so it still handles like the more traditional options.

I say all this on the back of riding a custom frame at 175cm tall with a 66 degree HTA, 470mm reach, 605mm stack, 750mm wide bars, for a 100mm travel fork and the builder advised me I was being conservative and I just dismissed them as a Endurbro LLS fanboi who didn't really understand XC. After adapting to the initial weird feeling I can still describe this bike as very a twitchy XC bike even with a wheelbase over 1200mm! It goes to show there are a lot of preconceptions about geometry and the bike rides to the sum of the parts not one number or angle in isolation.

Anyway, getting off topic....
TLDR the Cervelo is a bang average looking, bang average fitting, expensive XC frame with annoying cable routing that I wouldn't be surprised if it was only a very marginally tweaked open mold frame

[Karvalo]

The funny thing is the full suspension frames most XCO elite riders are on are 67 degree HTA or just under (eg Fourstroke, Spark, Podium) which is more like a 66 hardtail given the sag differences. The geo changes haven't really carried through to hardtails.

Right but, if you're purely making a frame for elite XCO racing (and maybe more specifically for male XCO riders) doesn't that make sense? In the mens elite ranks the HT is only ever getting a run out on the smoothest and least technical climbing heavy courses. For the rough stuff there are full suspension bikes, why shouldn't the HT be different when it is legitimately built for a different purpose? If your top rider is in the women's field where they're much more likely to ride an HT at more races then i do get your point.

TLDR the Cervelo is a bang average looking, bang average fitting, expensive XC frame with annoying cable routing that I wouldn't be surprised if it was only a very marginally tweaked open mold frame

Like a Specialized Epic HT or Scott Scale?

[DanW]

OT Geo discussion, but a little more towards a sensible geo (IMO) like a BMC TwoStroke or FourStroke has no disadvantages for climbing or smoother courses. This is a misconception just the same as me thinking my custom builder was nuts for suggesting my numbers were still conservative. Hardtail geo is a combination of "make it the same as the full sus for that market segment but forget the geo actually changes differently with fork sag" and hardtail geo being a massive afterthought as no one really buys them for XC racing anymore.

Like a Specialized Epic HT or Scott Scale?

At least the Epic HT and Scale represent better value and have cable routing actually suitible for mud and the average home mechanic. They are no more interesting in terms of geo or features but are a solid option if that is what you want to go for. The Cervelo is equally solid, more expensive and more faff. OK, but nothing exciting and The only USP of this bike is the logo on the downtube. I guess the criticism from many people is because it feels like yet another missed opportunity for a brand to do something different rather than the status quo + silly cables. At least that is my feeling. Happy Trails!

[HansZuDemFranz]

angles look okay, its the cables through the headset bearing that annoys me.

Seriously, why would anyone want that? Its already annoying on Roadbikes, but at least they can claim to get some marginal aero-advantage there. On MTBs there is litereally zero benefit of doing it that way.

[kgcx]

My bike shop was building one of these up for an unknown pro athlete yesterday. Wasn't impressed with how the cables goes through the headset, especially with non wireless groupsets. It is litterally just a large rubber grommet that doesn't seem like it will seal out mud and dirt when the bike actually gets dirty.