complete bikes easy over 20.000 $ these day

[mises]

Also if you live in the US, the usdollar has not been doing so well in the last 5ish years.

The 95% decline in value since the Fed was created in 1913 isn't too stellar either. But every government fiat currency not 100% redeemable at a fixed rate for some physical commodity eventually goes to 0, so it's no real surprise.

I'm really not troubled by $20,000 bikes, or pet health insurance and people on $8 an hour with $150 a month cell phone bills either. To me it's a positive sign that despite massively interventionist government policies preventing people from making the decisions they want for themselves we are still creating enough wealth that people can afford to spend their money that way without dying or selling their children (though 3 generation mortgages in Japan is pushing it). What bothers me is what could have been created without all the interference, killing and destruction.

[divve]

I'd like to add that I never underestimate the will and determination of business to run a little interference of market forces for themselves as well, be it through unfair trade practices or through government lobby. Cheating will go on as long as there's money to be made. A utopia of completely free economics will have to go hand in hand with an utopian level of moral conduct as well...

[mises]

A utopia of completely free economics will have to go hand in hand with an utopian level of moral conduct as well...

I would argue the exact opposite. When the state is granted the power to do absolutely anything it takes a far higher level of moral conduct to prevent just that from happening, and the record of the last century and this one to date suggests it can't be done.

[snips]

very ot...the privitasation of state industry! how many more people are going to be killed in the uk by privately owned, disfunctional rail maintanance companies...

back on topic...i don't own a car, the cost of my bike is the same as a cheap urban run around. i'd rather on a 'ferrari ' of a bike than a 'skoda' of a car

[Pantani]

Excellent response Madcow - sums it all up. Riding a nice bike is more enjoyable than riding a crappy one, so if you work hard and especially if you have limited time to spend on the bike, why not?

@Snips - thats a bit of a cheap shot at Skoda - fine cars since the VW takeover, but a perfect example of what nationalisation does when they were run by the Czech communist regime.

[Shallowhal]

Riding a nice bike is more enjoyable than riding a crappy one

I don't necessarily agree with that! I agree completely with Madcow in that why shouldn't we spend money on a nice bike if we want to. I personally work way too many hours and I'm not very wealthy, but over the last year and half I saved up for my dream ride, which will really only get used on weekends(I have a cheaper bike for commuting), mostly for social riding and keeping fit. I would like to compete but no time at the minute. However my brother and niece have bikes that cost around GBP100 each and they enjoy riding as much as I do.

IMO if we had most of the people out there on bikes, whether GBP100 or GBP10,000 the world would be a far nicer place, and who cares what they're worth, as long as the rider enjoys them

[allons-y]

without the generic older doctor/lawyer who has the latest and greatest bike, many lbs's would not be able to stay in business. these guys pump so much money through lbs's (constantly buying every new little bit when it comes out) that is contributes to a signifcant portion of their net intake.

i was talking to one of the wrenches at my lbs the other day, and he rattled of 5 names that essentailly pay his paycheck.....

so yea, alot of us who dont have the 20k bikes are at least slightly jealous of "them" with their nice bikes. but they earned it (by working hard and being succesful and having the dough for the bikes) so good on them.

but keep in mind, we pretty much need them to keep our sport going.

in my family alone, we have both types. i ride a cheap alu w/ second level group and decent wheels race bike ~ 1500. my dad, a businessman, has a 7k custom serotta. its a sweet bike, way more than he needs. but it gets him out and keeps him healthy, and he rides 3-5 days a week (more in the summer).

[madcow]

without the generic older doctor/lawyer who has the latest and greatest bike, many lbs's would not be able to stay in business. these guys pump so much money through lbs's (constantly buying every new little bit when it comes out) that is contributes to a signifcant portion of their net intake.

i was talking to one of the wrenches at my lbs the other day, and he rattled of 5 names that essentailly pay his paycheck.....

While I agree with this somewhat, I'd argue that the wrench doesn't actually look at his shops books and is just going off of his impressions.

I don't think too many people would argue that we do a fairly high number of these very expensive bikes, yet in reality, the comprise a pretty small portion of our yearly sales. The real money in a bike shop is made on the guy that walks in and buys the $400 MTB, helmet, gloves etc.... That's the lifeblood of almost all shops, and it's what keeps the shops alive.

If you really look at what goes into these bikes, there's not really much to be made on them. As items get more expensive, the margins get smaller. The higher end customers usually expect some discounting, as well they demand a lot of time and attention, so in the end, selling just a few inexpensive bikes quickly and easily can produce more revenue for a shop than an expensive project bike. I think in some cases, I can spend as much as 100 hours meeting with the customer, calling vendors, sourcing parts, handling importing, painting, coating, building, fitting etc... So the sale may be high, but the actual profit is incredibly low. And honestly, I don't do the really high end bikes to make money(that's what the standard bikes are for) I do it from a passion to make something special. And to make someone a bike that they can like as much as I like my own bikes.

[STARNUT]

The real money in a bike shop is made on the guy that walks in and buys the $400 MTB, helmet, gloves etc.... That's the lifeblood of almost all shops, and it's what keeps the shops alive.

If you really look at what goes into these bikes, there's not really much to be made on them. As items get more expensive, the margins get smaller. The higher end customers usually expect some discounting, as well they demand a lot of time and attention, so in the end, selling just a few inexpensive bikes quickly and easily can produce more revenue for a shop than an expensive project bike. I think in some cases, I can spend as much as 100 hours meeting with the customer, calling vendors, sourcing parts, handling importing, painting, coating, building, fitting etc... So the sale may be high, but the actual profit is incredibly low. And honestly, I don't do the really high end bikes to make money(that's what the standard bikes are for) I do it from a passion to make something special. And to make someone a bike that they can like as much as I like my own bikes.

Man.........I'll snap to that in a heartbeat. Margins are already thin in the bike industry as it is. High end parts are way low margin. They are mostly sold as an image thing rather tha a profit thing. You would all be hughly surprised at the margin on SRMs................its almost not worth the trouble to sell them; you can make more selling a $2800 Trek with Ultegra than selling a SRM dura ace/fsa.

The wrench is the wrong guy to ask for sure.............They (typically) do not see margins, pre season discounts, payment terms and dating (which equates to ROI and interest and profit). They only see what goes in the cash drawer.

Madcow is on salary at his shop, I'm sure. If he sat down and billed his customers like a lawyer does.................those project bikes bikes would quickly loose their appeal. Lets assume $10/hr, which is pretty cheap for a good wrench, which madcow is. At an addtitional 100 hours per project bike, thats and extra $1000 per bike. That can be an additionally 10%...easy. Thats an (conservative, because I'm sure Madcow's time is worth more than $10/hr) extra $1000 that Fairwheel is not getting in revenue, but is "buying" in good will, which does show up as an asset but I digress.

i was talking to one of the wrenches at my lbs the other day, and he rattled of 5 names that essentailly pay his paycheck.....

allons-y, I'm not picking on you at all, just useing your words to illustrate a point. Plus, dosen't it piss you off that your money is not as good as some lawyers or doctors? You work just as hard for your money as they do. Some where along the line someone said thier time is worth more tha yours, thus they get paid more. You work just as hard for your paycheck as they do..............the shop should treat you all the same because of that. Not doing so is just plain offensive.

This a perfect example as to why the bike industry is know for horrible service. If it every got back to me that one of my employees said that 5 people write his/her check I'd remind him/her that I write their check. We make just as much profit on a $2000 mountain bikes with accessories as a $4000 set of wheels. Thats why I write the checks, not them. I'm sure everyone here has a great local shop and you are lucky, don't take those kids for granted. Buy them a 6er (no green bottles) every once in a while if they do a good job with your stuff. If they are the non drinking type/age.....a jug of Hammer Nutrition RecoverRite is about the same price and equally sppreciated.

At any rate ......this quote is telling, and showing. If wrenchs think that big sales pay the bills and they act that way.......well............its a self fulfilling prophecy.

http://www.bicycleretailer.com/bicycleretailer/headlines/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003539566

Starnut

Edit: what the hell is this thread about anyway

[allons-y]

allons-y, I'm not picking on you at all, just useing your words to illustrate a point. Plus, dosen't it piss you off that your money is not as good as some lawyers or doctors? You work just as hard for your money as they do. Some where along the line someone said thier time is worth more tha yours, thus they get paid more. You work just as hard for your paycheck as they do..............the shop should treat you all the same because of that. Not doing so is just plain offensive.

im a student - i have no money

i hear what you are saying, but my shop treats me just as well as the 5 guys i was referring to. it could just be me, as i am pretty good friends w/ the two wrenches and hang out there alot, get lots of free stuff/time from them, but i would even say they treat me "better" than the 5 guys i was talking about. other factors at play there though.

[CharlesM]

For starters...


I think the initial topic of 20,000 bikes being common is pure horseshat...


Can you spend 20k? Sure. But I really see absolutely nothing on the market today that I wan't much beyond what I have, and it's no 20K...

The last two bikes I got, fully Custom Parlee Z1sl or Crumpton sl, a tuned Campy group, Up market cranks, Lightweight Obermeyers or Z3 Zedtech's, And You're still not nearly riding a 10K bike...

Toss in a wigged out custom paint scheme and you're still closer to 10 than 20k.

To be perfectly honest, I have never seen a 20k+ bike that was a far better performer than anything I've worked up in the 10k range. I've also never personaly seen a 20k+ bike that anyone but the owner and the seller found to be worth 10k more than anything in the 10k range.


Something over 20k (and yep, I have friends that this will annoy) requires an absolutely head bent customer that is far more into exclusivity for the sake of exclusivity than they are about simply wanting a dream bike.

I'm not saying there's ANYTHING WRONG with customers or suppliers of this type of bike. I LOVE SEEING THEM. They're show stopping, bespoke everything, dream wagons. I love the people passionate enough to order them up and I love the shops passionate enough to make them.


That said...

My point isn't anything against 20k+ bikes. My point is that bikes over 20k are no place near common.

They're so far out of the ballpark as to virtually be out of the game.

[sawyer]

Yes, it's like buying a ferrari, simple as that. It depreciates more than a ferrari, but it also harms the environment less and is less anti-social than ta ferrair. My bike is worth more than my car, but we are talking $6000 here, not $20,000 which I would never spend as I have other priorities and limited bungle.

Although the top-end has exploded and it is easy to drop $10k plus on a bike (by the way, to the non-cognoscenti I'd venture the cost of lightweights and ADAs is the most preposterous aspect of this ... ), the fact is that you can get a very good pro level bike for not a huge outlay. Canyon's are a good example - where a full pro level bike weighing about the UCI minimum weight can be had for around $4000.

Here in the UK that would equate to about 2 weeks gross pay for someone on average earnings. Not too outrageous for such a great product IMO.

[divve]

The last two bikes I got, fully Custom Parlee Z1sl or Crumpton sl, a tuned Campy group, Up market cranks, Lightweight Obermeyers or Z3 Zedtech's, And You're still not nearly riding a 10K bike...

Indeed, because you can't finish your build with Obermeyers and a high-end frame with 10K. You'll just have a frame and wheels

[CharlesM]

Ahh, Good nit pick. I meant that with a custom frame and Obermeyers you're close to a 10k bike built up. And more close to 10 than 20...


The point is that 20k plus bikes are no place near common and need to toss out performance and function as any benefit what so ever.

At least with a Ferrari / Veyron / supercar, you are getting something with insane performance, where the performance benefit of a 10kish bike in no less than a 20kish bike.

A 20k plus bike is to bikes what a 2 million dollar car is to cars...

[cees]

For starters...
I think the initial topic of 20,000 bikes being common is pure horseshat...
.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSzq0uTV2SQ
well frame............
wheels...............
carbon group
carbon brake's
carbon srm
carbon handle bar........
carbon pedals............
carbon helmet.......
carbon saddle..............
carbon shoes..........


easy 20k