Campagnolo SR ITA BB cups installation method

[karhu]

Asking collective wisdom for help to find correct procedure to install Campagnolo SR ITA BB cups on Dogma frame. Pinarello frame manual recommends loctite 222 thread locker application and hand tightening as a preferred method. Campagnolo recommends tightening with 35 mm of torque but doesn't specify if any lubricant is needed in addition to factory-applied dry threadlocker. What is the correct way if one exists?
- remove dry threadlocker, apply loctite222 + hand tightening per Pinarello frame manual
- same as above but keep dry threadlocker
- dry installation with 35 nm torque per Campagnolo
- keep dry thread locker, apply lubricant and tighten with 35 nm torque
- remove dry thread locker, apply lubricant an tighten with 35 nm
- ???

[Miller]

No need to overthink this, just screw it into the frame as is, with a fair amount of torque. Screw-in cups won't creak. Even if you suspected they were creaking, they're easy to remove unlike glued-in pressfit cups.

[dj97223]

I usually scrape off the factory thread locker, then torque per Campag instructions. I only have English BB's, but I doubt the thread direction would dictate any different method.

Edit: I use lots of grease on the threads to help avoid seizing down the road.

[Calnago]

I remove that dried threadlocker on the threads. It's often too thick. Use a copper based antiseize on the threads, and torque it down to 35Nm. End of story, no issues no maintenance. Upon removal down the road, maybe years later, it will come out just as easy as it went in, but do make sure you use an antiseize compound on the threads.

That whole "preferred method of installing by hand using Loctite 222" has long since been called out, even by Campagnolo, as the "inferior method" of install. Use the torque wrench to 35Nm. The reason for that early recommendation was simply because proper cup tools were scarce at the beginning and more often than not heavy handed mechanics with awful wrenches would inevitably marr the surfaces only to have the customers go "uh... how come it's all scratched up now". And that is the only reason the "install by hand" method was preferred. And I challenge anyone to install one of the those cups by hand with all that dried threadlocker on them.

[tommasini]

I prefer to remove the yellowish thread locker from the factory (use some solvent to loosen it up).......then after that is removed this also gives me a chance to test the smoothness of thread engagement between the cups and frame BB threads.

Then for actual installation I use blue Loctite liquid thread compound and the recommended high torque. Why.....because I've used blue Loctite on the drive side of Italian BB's going back many years (used to use grease on the non-drive side). The one time I used grease only on the drive side (and a lot of torque) a few months after installation I had the drive side cup work it's way out. So I have chosen to stay with a choice (blue Loctite) that has worked well over time (and creak free too).

[Calnago]

@tommasini... that was a common thing with Italian threads long ago, when bearings rolled directly against the cups that threaded into the frame. Hence the left hand thread on the drive side as in English Threaded BBs. But I've never heard of one of the newer Ultratorque type cups coming loose from "precession", the action that would unscrew the older Italian bb's. Did you experience this issue with an Ultratorque system as well. Just curious. Thx.

[jwfinesse]

This might be more information than what you need, but just for the sake of collective intelligence, here goes.

I had a Pegoretti Responsorium with ITA SR cups. The driveside BB kept coming loose on me because of the loose bb threads (which is why I got rid of the frame)

I tried:
1. Factory threadlocker +35Nm dry - came loose in the first 5 miles.
2. Factory threadlocker removed, loctite 222 with activator, 35Nm - came loose after a 30-mile ride
3. Factory threadlocker removed, loctite 242 with activator, 35Nm - also came loose but held on a bit longer.
4. Factory threadlocker removed, loctite 242 without activator, 35Nm - stayed in place for hundreds of miles until I sold the frame.

Loctite activator such as 7649 ensures loctite to dry and dry quickly, but it also compromises its breakaway strength a bit as per loctite document.

And I tried these four methods with 4 different cups. I am just anal like that:)

If your Dogma has tight bb threads, I wouldn't worry about apply extra loctite at all. However, since the factory threadlocker is so thick, and it may make it hard to thread the cup into an already tight bb shell (which may cause cross threading), I'd scrape it off with acetone and use a good quality grease of your choice. And, of course, torque it up to 35Nm

[Calnago]

Tough experience @jwfinesse. Yours must obviously been a case of sloppy BB threads in your frame as opposed to improper install. And quite different from the "precession" effect. I presume that frame wasn't new when you bought it. And it must have been really sloppy for it to still come loose after all that loctite in there.

[jwfinesse]

Oh, I bought it new alright

With campy's threadlocker being so thick, I didn't even realize threads were loose to begin with when I did my first install.

Regarding precession, I think it is one of the culprits for DS cup coming loose, because NDS threads were just as loose as DS threads, but it had no problem staying put. I didn't even have to use any loctite on NDS, just plain old grease. I'm not saying it's all precession to blame for, but once the cup gets slightly loose, precession will finish the job for good.

[Calnago]

Hmmm, the reason I presumed it wasn't new is because I would have thought that kind of thing would be a valid warranty issue and a new frame in order.

[jwfinesse]

Being a ciavete frame, warranty replacement wouldve meant a totally different color scheme and theme. And I loved how my frame turned out. I was willing to fix it myself but just lost interest after the whole ordeal.

[tommasini]

@tommasini... that was a common thing with Italian threads long ago, when bearings rolled directly against the cups that threaded into the frame. Hence the left hand thread on the drive side as in English Threaded BBs. But I've never heard of one of the newer Ultratorque type cups coming loose from "precession", the action that would unscrew the older Italian bb's. Did you experience this issue with an Ultratorque system as well. Just curious. Thx.

I'd seen others with the drive side unthreading back in the days of loose ball bearing BBs (as you specifically noted). My one bad day came up with the sealed cartridge bearing square taper version where it was suggested that the bearing forces were different than loose balls and thus no issues should arise from a greased and torqued drive side Italian BB threaded "cup". After that I've stuck with locktite just for piece of mind if anything else.

[graeme_f_k]

Probably worth mentioning that before applying any of the advice above, Chase and if the facing cutters are in contact only with the BB sleeve, face the BB shell. In theory it shouldn't be necessary on a bonded-in BB sleeve as such heat stress as the BB sleeve has been subject to should not have caused any distortion and the threads should should have been properly formed and concentric and the cylinder parallel-faced within spec, before being in-moulded into the frame - however, as jwfinesse has discovered, "should be" and "is" are occasionally two very different things ...

For the record at VT, we use a solvent to spread the yellow, factory-applied thread locker over the entire length of the thread (as it is also a barrier to galvanic corrosion) and install at 35 nm. I still use a thick polythene "condom" over the cup to lessen the chances of the tool marking the surface of the cup.

[karhu]

Thanks everybody for advice.

@graeme_f_k - what solvent do you use and how?

[AJS914]

I've used the factory theadlocker as-is and I've used grease when I've reused UT cups. I've never had an issue or a cup come lose.