Weight Weenies

dj97223 wrote:Marketing is not all bad -- it can be useful when explaining to the wife why I think I need new stuff!

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MoPho wrote:

TonyM wrote:11 speed cassettes are not necessary. paddle shifters and electronic shifting are not necessary. Clipless pedals are not necessary. Carbon fiber bikes are not necessary. Light weight is not necessary. Aero is not necessary. Etc.

This kind of guff is spouted all the time by industry sock-puppets. Sounds like you just invested in a disk brake bike, and want to drink the kool-aid. There is NO improvement with hydraulic disk over rim brakes in dry weather. Improvements in technology are great but they aren't for everyone, but forcing changes through onto people who don't want them or need them is unethical.

I work in a city school. 90% of the students ride $300-$500 alloy mountain bikes that have never seem dirt. Most of them ride Giant 27.5 10 speed alloy bikes with cheap mechanical brakes. The difference and improvement from 26 to 27.5 and between V-brakes to cheap mechanical brakes is NIL. It's just Giant bicycles marketing dept forcing through changes that have not improved one thing. Plies of extra garbage going to landfill and annoyance finding parts. Next year the Giant shop will have 29er written down the front window in decals and will start its marketing push to children that are probably too small to it them.

tarmackev wrote:

silvalis wrote:Wait... your roadie rimbrakes on narrow tyres have the same power and modulation as hydro discs on a fat mtb tyre? I think you're doing something wrong...


And your mtb timeline is wrong. We went to 29 because we were told 26 was crap. Then we went to 27.5 because we were told 29 was too big.

Now? Seems like 29 was right all along.

Yup.
I can get my mountain bike up on its front wheel using one finger on the brake lever. I'm not willing to attempt it on my road bike but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't happen.

Yep, I can endo using one finger on my mountain bike too. But if I put that amount of power on to the front wheel of my road bike I'd leave a long black streak and face plant.

If you....
-Descend in the dry
-Descend in the drops
-Have very good alloy rims and pads in good condition
-Pull the brake at the end of the lever with two fingers

You should find very minimal or no difference between using a hydraulic brake or rim brakes with one finger. Time is lost on the ascents, much more than descents.

Lewn777 wrote:

mopho wrote:11 speed cassettes are not necessary. paddle shifters and electronic shifting are not necessary. Clipless pedals are not necessary. Carbon fiber bikes are not necessary. Light weight is not necessary. Aero is not necessary. Etc.

This kind of guff is spouted all the time by industry sock-puppets.

Uh huh, so how did we ever survive without all that stuff?

Sounds like you just invested in a disk brake bike, and want to drink the kool-aid. There is NO improvement with hydraulic disk over rim brakes in dry weather. Improvements in technology are great but they aren't for everyone, but forcing changes through onto people who don't want them or need them is unethical.

And you sound like someone not giving something a chance because you want to protect your investments in old tech. It's all about you.
I've wanted disc brakes long before they ever came out on road bikes, no "kool-aid" needed as I based my decision on personal experience. And you are absolutely wrong, they are definitely better, even in the dry. If you don't want to believe that, then it is your problem. If you don't want disc brakes, don't buy one, but hypocritical to tell others that they don't need disc brakes because you sure as hell don't need a weight weenie, aero bike, or any of the other modern tech I am sure you've bought either.

Improvements in technology are great but they aren't for everyone, but forcing changes through onto people who don't want them or need them is unethical.

Then don't buy a new car, computer, phone, TV, camera, etc. because those companies are unethically forcing new technologies on you too. Bastards!

Time is lost on the ascents, much more than descents.

I've made up the time I've lost climbing on the descents many a time, maybe you should stop speaking in absolutes.
And not everything in cycling is about time or racing, I live near a big technical descent, I regularly get stuck behind slow moving cars and have to ride the brakes down, discs are a big improvement in this arena too.
And like buying a nice groupset, wheels, frame, etc, the feel and feedback of disc brakes is a big improvement, now you may not appreciate that, but I do. Everyone I know who has made the switch to disc has raved about them.
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MoPho wrote:And you sound like someone not giving something a chance because you want to protect your investments in old tech. It's all about you.

I've got three bikes with hydraulic disk brakes and one with mechanical sitting in my garage right now!
Disk brakes don't suit every kind of bike.

I've wanted disc brakes long before they ever came out on road bikes, no "kool-aid" needed as I based my decision on personal experience. And you are absolutely wrong, they are definitely better, even in the dry.

You are quite simply wrong.

You seem confused. This thread was never about weather disk brakes are better than rim brakes.
It was about the cycle industry using propaganda through media outlets to push through changes in bike tech many people don't want.
Not everyone wants the bike you just bought.

Lewn777 wrote:I've got three bikes with hydraulic disk brakes and one with mechanical sitting in my garage right now!

Congratulations, me too. How many are performance road bikes?

You seem confused. This thread was never about weather disk brakes are better than rim brakes.
It was about the cycle industry using propaganda through media outlets to push through changes in bike tech many people don't want.

No, you set the stage in your second paragraph when you declared which kinds of bikes are worthy of disc brakes and made other questionable claims further along in the thread


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Lewn777 wrote:On my bike with alloy Campaganolo or DT Swiss rims my 105 rim brakes with stock pads in the dry have exactly the same power AND modulation as the Shimano XT and SLX brakes I've been using for years on my MTBs.

Lewn777 wrote:Yep, I can endo using one finger on my mountain bike too. But if I put that amount of power on to the front wheel of my road bike I'd leave a long black streak and face plant.

%snip%
-Pull the brake at the end of the lever with two fingers

Sooo... you don't have the same power and modulation...

MoPho wrote:

Lewn777 wrote:I've got three bikes with hydraulic disk brakes and one with mechanical sitting in my garage right now!

Congratulations, me too. How many are performance road bikes?

You seem confused. This thread was never about weather disk brakes are better than rim brakes.
It was about the cycle industry using propaganda through media outlets to push through changes in bike tech many people don't want.

No, you set the stage in your second paragraph when you declared which kinds of bikes are worthy of disc brakes and made other questionable claims further along in the thread


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Calm down mate.
Someone on the internet has a different opinion, it's not the end of the world.

silvalis wrote:

Lewn777 wrote:On my bike with alloy Campaganolo or DT Swiss rims my 105 rim brakes with stock pads in the dry have exactly the same power AND modulation as the Shimano XT and SLX brakes I've been using for years on my MTBs.

Lewn777 wrote:Yep, I can endo using one finger on my mountain bike too. But if I put that amount of power on to the front wheel of my road bike I'd leave a long black streak and face plant.

%snip%
-Pull the brake at the end of the lever with two fingers

Sooo... you don't have the same power and modulation...

How did you figure that out:?: I use two fingers on a road bike because the lever is designed to use two fingers and roads are smooth, mostly .
I use one finger on a mountain bike because the lever is designed for one finger and dirt tracks are rough and you need your other fingers to keep hold of the bar.

TonyM wrote:

dj97223 wrote:Marketing is not all bad -- it can be useful when explaining to the wife why I think I need new stuff!

That's an actual easy argument with the Wife for Discs - Honey I need Disc brakes for safety reasons(even if it isn't true) - to be able to stop before hitting a car or coming down a Hill or Mountain and not being able to stop.

morrisond wrote:

TonyM wrote:

dj97223 wrote:Marketing is not all bad -- it can be useful when explaining to the wife why I think I need new stuff!

That's an actual easy argument with the Wife for Discs - Honey I need Disc brakes for safety reasons(even if it isn't true) - to be able to stop before hitting a car or coming down a Hill or Mountain and not being able to stop.

To which Wifey replied, "how are you still alive after all these years?"

Lewn777 wrote:

MoPho wrote:

Lewn777 wrote:I've got three bikes with hydraulic disk brakes and one with mechanical sitting in my garage right now!

Congratulations, me too. How many are performance road bikes?

You seem confused. This thread was never about weather disk brakes are better than rim brakes.
It was about the cycle industry using propaganda through media outlets to push through changes in bike tech many people don't want.

No, you set the stage in your second paragraph when you declared which kinds of bikes are worthy of disc brakes and made other questionable claims further along in the thread


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Calm down mate.
Someone on the internet has a different opinion, it's not the end of the world.

I think he seems pretty calm. I'm a bit tired of the luddites complaining about propoganda and new tech being shoved down our throats.... on WeightWeenies, of all places. This forum has been my go to place to read up on common people pushing the tech-envelope, and it's all that more exciting when the manufacturers are also doing the pushing (innovation-wise).

Personally, I have a sub 15lb aero road set up with EE brakes.... and I prefer disc brakes on my performance road bike because what goes up must come down, and a 30min descent averaging over 45mph is a lot better with hydo disc brakes than it is burning through brake pads while smelling the resin in my tubulars melting

Lewn777 wrote:I was pretty disturbed to hear cycle industry propaganda talking about 'hydraulic disk brakes freeing up frame space to allow manufacturers to innovate' sounds exactly like the MTB 27.5, boost and fat and plus wheel and axle options propaganda that have been floating around the MTB industry.
...
The cycle industry trying to make more money but creating redundant dead end standards.
...
... my worry is that all the pros will be forced onto disks by their sponsors and then everyone else will be left being forced in that direction.

1) The media is the mouthpiece of the manufacturers, the latter pays the former via advertising etc.

2) Unfortunately, manufacturers can say what they like, e.g. via marketing or the media, to sway public opinion. For the public (us), there are at least two ways forward:
a) Talk about the change, e.g. in forums such as this. Talk about it in team/club rides. Talk about it on social media. So, threads like this are useful.
b) 'Talk' with our wallets. I'm seeing retailers display more bikes with disc brakes. Don't buy them if you don't want to. The market will adjust, and if people don't buy disc brake equipped bikes, the manufacturers will get the point. If there is still reasonable demand for rim-brakes, then those will remain available.
c) If there's insufficient difference between disc vs rim brakes, then manufacturers can make the switch easily since there's minimal impact on the consumer. But if disc brakes poses more issues (e.g. maintenance), then that will automatically deter people from switching.

3) Most cyclists don't follow World Tours (maybe a bit of TdF), they certainly won't ride whatever the pros ride. We tend to mistake the people we most often ride with to be representative of the entire cycling population. Most cyclists go to the local retailer store and look at what's available, and maybe compare prices online.

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For the people who switched from carbon clinchers to discs, did you try/consider aluminum brake tracks (a la Hed, Mavic, Campy/Fulcrum depending on desired depth) before switching? I completely understand the desire to move away from carbon braking surfaces, but it seems a bit like throwing the baby out with the bathwater to disregard the fact that aluminum braking surfaces have also progressed and at least in my opinion are phenomenal. Couple hundred grams of weight penalty but you still that all black aesthetic