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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:44 pm 
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Posts: 148
kgt wrote:
Not at all :)

Ok, thing is: aero is one "parameter" in a set of properties of a frame. Pro riders pick the bike that is fastest for them at the given race. So, other parameters might outweigh the fact that one frame is more aero than the other. For GC riders, aerodynamics of a frame are in fact largely irrelevant. Look at where Nibali lost his time, it was in the TT(T) and on steep climbs. So he was right to pick the lighter of the two frames he has on offer. It is a myth that aero frames can all easily be built to 6.8kg with the equipment that the pros are using no matter of how tall the rider is, so weight of the frame is important. Also, he might like the geometry of the Scultura better or whatever other parameter was outweighing aerodynamics of the Reacto for him.

We might however see a different distribution of aero vs non aero frames if riders were free to pick whichever frame they want instead of only 2-3. Not for GC riders of course. Their case doesn't matter here.

What you are doing is that you pick a certain group of rider type and deduct from them not choosing the aero frame option that aero in general doesn't matter outside of TT events and this is a plain logical error in your line of thinking. It's like saying cars don't need four wheels because motorcycles are perfectly fine with only two.


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Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:44 pm 


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:17 pm 
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Location: Athens, Greece
Good, it seems we can now discuss...

I give pro cycling as an example because pro riders can have custom geometry frames and components, custom carbon tubesets (see UAE's C60 ltd) and practically they can have anything they wish. Especially stars like Nibali.
So if Nibali or Bardet or Quintana don't prefer aero frames it is not because they cannot have a proper aero frame or the geometry and weight they want. It is because they know better than anyone (certainly better than ww forum members) that in 99% of the races aero does not matter.

So, no logical error at all. You don't need to take a theoretical group of riders as you do. Reality is pretty simple and supportive of my argument.

I am not saying that gains from aerodynamics or watts/cda etc. is a myth. Not at all. I am sure you understand that my attack is not against technology or aerodynamics, engineers etc. ( I even ride an aero frame!). I am just against a silly, if not unethical, marketing (usually directed by a few big companies and the press) that says if you ride our new aero A you will be 1 min faster in your next race. That is a huge logical error that is done on purpose.

What is your opinion about disc brakes? Aren't they influencing aerodynamics in a negative way? Why are they pushed by the companies that say "aerodynamics is everything" then? The simple answer is because discs can bring new profits, more profits. That is not bad per se but this is not called "science", just marketing.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:14 pm 
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kgt wrote:
3Pio wrote:
But i really like to hear real world experiences about this, not just marketing from the magazines who got money to write down whatever manufacturers like Pinarello want.


The closest to the "real world experience" is what is called Pro Cycling. Just follow the top 5 riders in every Grand Tour during the last years. All these riders (together with their teams, coaches, technical managers, sponsors, friends, etc. etc.) want to win. This is the only thing they want. Guess what? Many of them choose to ride non aero frames, cockpits or helmets. Why? Because in practice aero only matters in TTs. Yes, it's simple as that. Unless Nibali and every single guy at Bahrain-Merida are retards. He just lost the Vuelta for a couple of minutes...



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:04 pm 
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Location: Vienna Austria
kgt wrote:
they know better than anyone (certainly better than ww forum members) that in 99% of the races aero does not matter.


That might well be, but for exampe for me, in 99% of my riding aero does matter and will make me go faster, or with less exhaustion, or longer. Maybe by a small margin, but still.

However, I still don't think you should start optimizing aero with the frame - that's probably the last place to look.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:10 am 
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It's almost like GC riders will keep riding their lightweight bikes on flatter stages because they are generally non-factors that day. It's also funny that anyone with a chance to win the stage will be o. An aero bike because centimeters matter in the final 200m.

Lightweight bikes will continue to evolve more aerodynamic shapes, aero bikes will continue to creep toward the 6.8kg UCI minimum.

As for discs, I'll gladly take discs with the amount of climbing and subsequent fast descending I do...especially with carbon rims.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:24 am 
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kgt wrote:
What is your opinion about disc brakes? Aren't they influencing aerodynamics in a negative way? Why are they pushed by the companies that say "aerodynamics is everything" then? The simple answer is because discs can bring new profits, more profits. That is not bad per se but this is not called "science", just marketing.


This is a really, really, really good point IMO.

I completely believe in aero, the science is there and the big companies aren't making it up. Don't have an aero frame, but will buy one the next time I'm in the market for a new frame. Aero everything is better, because it is faster.

BUT...Specialized has almost completely converted the Venge to disc, and I don't get it. It's an aero bike. Disc brakes are not as aero as rim. I want aero in a flat, fast fast fast race, cross winds, etc...when are discs going to help me? Maybe if it is wet?

So yeah, marketing spin on the aero, and on the disc.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:12 am 
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thePrince wrote:
BUT...Specialized has almost completely converted the Venge to disc, and I don't get it. It's an aero bike. Disc brakes are not as aero as rim. I want aero in a flat, fast fast fast race, cross winds, etc...when are discs going to help me? Maybe if it is wet?


Consolidation. Teams eventually won't want to carry both rim-brake and disc wheelsets plus spare parts. Right now it's aero bikes with disc brakes because the extra weight won't matter and it's still not that easy to get the climbing bikes down to 6.8kg (disc brake versions of bikes typically weigh about 600g more than the rim brake versions.) We may see Trek-Segafredo riders use the Emonda SLR Disc next season on mountain stages because it's one of the few disc bikes that can easily get down to the UCI min weight.

Tubeless is starting to infiltrate TTs too for obvious reasons.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:18 am 
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Marin wrote:
kgt wrote:
they know better than anyone (certainly better than ww forum members) that in 99% of the races aero does not matter.

That might well be, but for exampe for me, in 99% of my riding aero does matter and will make me go faster, or with less exhaustion, or longer. Maybe by a small margin, but still.
However, I still don't think you should start optimizing aero with the frame - that's probably the last place to look.


I understand what you say but your answer brings up more questions. What kind of riding? Riding alone? What's the value of going faster then? And why don't you use a tt frame? Or even a recumbent?
I am not saying you should not want to go faster but that is just something you like as other riders prefer to go slower and "smell the roses".

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:26 am 
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Location: Vienna Austria
kgt wrote:
I understand what you say but your answer brings up more questions. What kind of riding? Riding alone? What's the value of going faster then? And why don't you use a tt frame? Or even a recumbent?
I am not saying you should not want to go faster but that is just something you like as other riders prefer to go slower and "smell the roses".


Mostly riding alone, and I end up at the front during group rides a lot, at least as long as it's flat.

If you prefer to go slow and smell the "roses", you could get a fitness bike


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:05 pm 
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alot of you guys are missing a trick or two re: aero but not me, thing is other places beside the frame are the real aero goldmine!

Image

can i just say that it in the vein of the "fitness bike" gag, it would be very comical to see kgt on a hybrid or something like it. something with a shimano sora groupset and a rear view mirror off the handlebar and maybe even reflectors in the wheel. :D imagine kgt, you could face the dilemma each morning,

"do i take
Image

or
Image

:lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:59 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2013 1:09 am
Posts: 82
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Consolidation...Right now it's aero bikes with disc brakes because the extra weight won't matter


You completely ignore the non-aero aspect of disc brakes and shift the focus to extra weight. For situations where aero matters, disc isn't offering you anything that an integrated rim brake can't, so it's just making your aero bike less aero.

But the pro teams are "accepting" making their aero bikes less aero and their lightweight bikes heavier...because of consolidation. Consolidation to disc because these companies want to sell more bikes to consumers.

So that's KGTs point, it is marketing after all.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:58 pm 
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Posts: 447
thePrince wrote:
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Consolidation...Right now it's aero bikes with disc brakes because the extra weight won't matter


You completely ignore the non-aero aspect of disc brakes and shift the focus to extra weight. For situations where aero matters, disc isn't offering you anything that an integrated rim brake can't, so it's just making your aero bike less aero.

But the pro teams are "accepting" making their aero bikes less aero and their lightweight bikes heavier...because of consolidation. Consolidation to disc because these companies want to sell more bikes to consumers.

So that's KGTs point, it is marketing after all.


At zero degrees yaw the penalty is non-existent. At medium yaw it's still a minimal...we're talking 1-2W. The reality is yaw angles higher than 7-9deg are almost never seen when the peloton is moving at nearly 30mph and sprinters are finishing >40mph.

Reminder that the 1-2W lost may not be permanent. Disc brakes allow for true NACA profiles, wider tires, etc. Or even something as simple as taking a couple of corners more confidently.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:21 pm 
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Posts: 82
I agree with everything you are saying. In some cases, the disc brakes will have a few seconds aero penalty (if you are in a crosswind), but in some cases might save you a few seconds cornering (if you are scared of cornering on rim brakes).

So, if they are neutral, then yep, let's market the crap out of them and sell more bikes.

Unlike disc, at least aero frames have irrefutable benefit (they are faster), and it is up to consumer to decide if they need that feature. Soon, won't have much of a choice with disc. Maybe not either with aero I suppose.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:00 am 
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IMPORTANT:

From now on, anyone that derails the aero threads with "aero doesn't matter" or whatever else...your post will be removed.

For everyone else, if you have an issue with the people derailing a thread, there's a report button. It's not fair to blame mods for "not moderating" in expectation that we spend every waking moment reading every thread on this forum to keep people in line...

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Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:00 am 


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:15 am 
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Pfffft.

Sorry, that was an aero "Pfffft."

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