frame choice to move of on Ridley Helium

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eajohnson
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:09 pm

by eajohnson

Hey all, I know this is a rather broad topic but I'm currently riding a 2012 Ridley Helium and really like it but it has got a ton of mileage on it and probably due for a routine replacement.

Basically my criteria are that it I'm looking for weight, liveliness responding to power, comfort at least as good as my Helium, doesn't have any horrible quirks when used with Campagnolo (derailleur hanger position, chainstay length not crazy short), and ideally is slightly more aero than my Helium but not a heavy aero frame. It should ride like a race bike not an endurance bike, but I do a two or three 250-320km rides each year so comfort is a factor. The Helium starts feeling not perfectly comfortable for me around the 250km mark on averaged mixed quality paved surfaces.

Some of the frames that come to mind include (in no particular order):

Ridley Helium SL
Fuji SL 1.1
Argon 18 Gallium Pro
Giant TCR Adanced SL
Cervelo R5
Cannondale Supersix Evo Hi-mod

there are some crazy expensive frames that look great (Dogma F8, Bianchi Specialissima) but I don't want to spend that much. Price is definitely a factor since my feeling is that frames are going to change a lot in the next few years with disc etc., which I don't want to move to now because it's not legal is sanctioned events at the moment and the standards still seem to be in flux - so this is a stopgap frame for the next 2-3 yrs.

I've done research on the web on the above (and have notes on each which I've not put in here since I don't want to bias peoples opinions). I've got two other Fuji bikes that have been great (Track 1.0 and Altamira CX 1.1) which is why I'm considering the Fuji, and I do really like the 2012 ISP Helium so the Helium SL is obviously on the list for that reason. The ISP is not a problem I've had no issues traveling with it.

Anyway, I'm curious to hear comparative impressions on riding characteristics/feel from people that have personally ridden more than one of the above and/or had experiences (good or bad) with fitting Campagnolo groupsets to any one or more of the above. Also if there are any candidates I didn't mention but should consider, feel free to suggest.

(for reference 6'1.5", 162lb and my Helium is a medium and fits me almost perfectly with a 130mm stem @-6 degrees with a thin 5mm spacer and just 6-7mm taken off the top of the ISP. 'almost' perfect because 5mm less stack height would be good, didn't go to -17 stem because I don't like the look. I want to like how my bike looks. :)

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AJS914
Posts: 5397
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

and probably due for a routine replacement


Routine replacement?

If you like this frame, I'd ride it indefinitely.

eajohnson
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:09 pm

by eajohnson

AJS914 wrote:
and probably due for a routine replacement


Routine replacement?

If you like this frame, I'd ride it indefinitely.


I do like it, very much. But I need to trust it and carbon is difficult to evaluate wrt condition without sophisticated equipment. My steel race bike from the 1980s I'll probably keep and ride forever but I regard these carbon frames as disposable.

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kgt
Posts: 8749
Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 10:29 am
Location: Athens, Greece

by kgt

There are carbon frames from the 80s still going strong but if you really want a change, that's up to you.
Amongst the frames you are interested in Giant TCR Adanced SL would be my choise. IMO it's a better quality frame (in terms of materials and manufacturing) than the others you mention.

XCProMD
Posts: 1125
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:25 am
Location: Cantabria

by XCProMD

eajohnson wrote:
AJS914 wrote:
and probably due for a routine replacement


Routine replacement?

If you like this frame, I'd ride it indefinitely.


I do like it, very much. But I need to trust it and carbon is difficult to evaluate wrt condition without sophisticated equipment. My steel race bike from the 1980s I'll probably keep and ride forever but I regard these carbon frames as disposable.


Your steel race bike from the 1980's is only protected against fatigue by a low stress range under service. And that is due to a generous wall thickness.

Funny thing with steel is if we calculate the static stress level it can handle, the wall thicknesses would be crazy low, 0,2mm for the higher yield strength tubing offerings would be absolutely fine.

But factor in fatigue and then:

1- you better braze the tubes together, as a weld has much less than half the FAT value of the base material (FAT class equals admissible stress level at 2E6 cycles, roughly speaking)

2-you need to put the stresses that can cycle over 2E6 times in the lifetime of the frame under the horizontal part of the Wöhler curve, which is determined by tensile strength and surface roughness. Consider the fact that good quality seamless tubing has a typical Rz=30um.

Your carbon frame is immune to all the rant above. It basically will last forever.


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eajohnson
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:09 pm

by eajohnson

XCProMD wrote:
eajohnson wrote:
AJS914 wrote:
and probably due for a routine replacement


Routine replacement?

If you like this frame, I'd ride it indefinitely.


I do like it, very much. But I need to trust it and carbon is difficult to evaluate wrt condition without sophisticated equipment. My steel race bike from the 1980s I'll probably keep and ride forever but I regard these carbon frames as disposable.


Your steel race bike from the 1980's is only protected against fatigue by a low stress range under service. And that is due to a generous wall thickness.

Funny thing with steel is if we calculate the static stress level it can handle, the wall thicknesses would be crazy low, 0,2mm for the higher yield strength tubing offerings would be absolutely fine.

But factor in fatigue and then:

1- you better braze the tubes together, as a weld has much less than half the FAT value of the base material (FAT class equals admissible stress level at 2E6 cycles, roughly speaking)

2-you need to put the stresses that can cycle over 2E6 times in the lifetime of the frame under the horizontal part of the Wöhler curve, which is determined by tensile strength and surface roughness. Consider the fact that good quality seamless tubing has a typical Rz=30um.

Your carbon frame is immune to all the rant above. It basically will last forever.


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Its potential to last forever based on fatigue resistance when loaded as designed, is not the point. When steel fails it's much easier to perceive prior to a catastrophic incident occurring (or even while it is occurring, I've personally witnessed a steel fork fail and my friend was able to bring the bike to a safe stop with huge wide cracks having developed in the fork during the ride - it did not fail completely and put his face into the pavement). With carbon after a number of years of riding and a number of aircraft flights (with golf clubs being dropped on it from the side and numerous other indignities that come from potential careless handling), it's quite possible to develop an unseen delamination that you can't perceive without equipment (like ultrasound), and when it does fail the failure tends to be catastrophic in a way where serious injury is a definite possibility. I've seen tons of carbon failures (mainly in non-bicycle applications, but a few in bikes), tiny damage that later causes total failure. If I had the equipment and could check my existing frame, then yes I'd keep it indefinitely because it rides great.

But this is seriously off-topic, I'm really interested in opinions on comparative ride qualities of these frames.

gravity
Posts: 657
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:01 am

by gravity

Bloody hell, the OP is asking for frame choice advice and someone is giving a lecture on material fatigue??

Giant or Cannondale for me. Just because.

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zappafile123
Posts: 655
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:24 am

by zappafile123

Here's my 2c

1) Ridley Helium SL's are generally very cheap these days. You can comfortably pick up a frame from $1000-1500aud - i.e. very good value for money. They are a few years old now however and are about to be superseded by the SLX. I'd want to ride the latest and greatest... but word is the Helium SL is a *very* good frameset

2) The Cervelo R5 is super responsive so it'd tick that box with aplomb. Probably can be had for about $2000-2500

3) I wasnt a fan of the SS evo... though its hard to make much of a ride round the block. IMO the 2015 black inc. HM nano is better than the 2016 frameset. They do climb very well, but are not very stiff (comparatively speaking!!!) through the BB i.e. not a great bike for the flat-lands.

4) TCRs are ultra-stiff framesets. I havent had the pleasure of riding the 2016 frame, but I hear they managed to make it stiffer than the preceding version. My opinion is they emphasize stiffness at the cost of a balanced road feel (pre-2015 bikes anyway). Nonetheless, they're still pretty good bikes, especially if you want a pure race machine. Maybe not the best choice for a 300km ride. Ive seen 2016 2nd hand ultregra builds go for like $2600aud - probably best value IMO

5) Fuji's are cheap too, but... not sure if I see the appeal.

6) All I know about Argon is they are decent, but nothing special (According to a stalwart who floats around on one along with owning both a C60 and a knockoff chinese R5)

I say 5 years is plenty of time to own one frame. Its enough time for you to notice a difference in the progression of frame technology which I think yields a much greater return on your investment.
Last edited by zappafile123 on Tue Sep 06, 2016 7:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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XCProMD
Posts: 1125
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Location: Cantabria

by XCProMD

gravity wrote:Bloody hell, the OP is asking for frame choice advice and someone is giving a lecture on material fatigue??

Giant or Cannondale for me. Just because.

Well, I think taking decisions from an informed position is good I prefer it like that.

But it can be done "just because", of course.


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eajohnson
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:09 pm

by eajohnson

I'm always somewhat annoyed at threads that have a beginning and a middle but no end, so following up on this one. I've ultimately decided on 'none of the above', and am going with the 2017 Bianchi Oltre xr.4

I'd narrowed it down to that, the Pinarello F8, the Giant TCR SL, Fuji SL 1.1, or Trek Madone 9 H1. A lot of options were eliminated once I invested in some careful fit measurements. Most full on race bikes will accommodate me with a 130mm or 140mm -17 stem, but some bikes such as the Cervelo R5 simply have too tall a stack height and would have to be slammed direct on the bearing without any sort of cap or even a cover. As high end frames go the Trek H1 is a bit of a bargain, I'd need their alternate seatpost and a specific cockpit configuration which comes with the Project One and the made in USA frame all makes quite an attractive proposition price wise especially considering you get to pick your colors. However for my purposes the fully hidden cables through the cockpit would be more of a pain than its worth for maintenance, and the total lack of cooperation between Trek and Campagnolo was also a strong negative as I'm unwilling to switch from Campy for reasons of the heart. The Fuji would have been a great choice at the bargain price point, the geometry fits me perfectly. The Giant is also tremendous value though I really dislike the frame color and would need to pay to have it refinished right off the bat which changes the value proposition and voids warranty. So that left the Pinarello F8 and the Bianchi, the latter which I have a soft spot for because the first enthusiast grade bicycle I bought for myself as a teenager (I worked to install a roof to pay for it) was a Bianchi and that is what I started racing on back in the 80's. I plan to send my Ridley frameset off to be examined with Ultrasound and if it checks out then I'll gradually build it back up as a lightweight climbing and 'B' bike. And if it doesn't check out then it will go on the wall as art.

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Miller
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Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:54 pm
Location: Reading, UK

by Miller

eajohnson wrote:it's quite possible to develop an unseen delamination that you can't perceive without equipment (like ultrasound), and when it does fail the failure tends to be catastrophic in a way where serious injury is a definite possibility.


Well, the internet keeps saying that carbon frames will explode at the tiniest hint of damage but all my experience with carbon frames and components is the complete opposite, carbon seems tough as old boots to me. The only frames that have ever broken under me have been metal ones.

On t'other hand if you want a new frame after 5 years that's perfectly reasonable and I'm sure you'll love the Bianchi. Sell the old one and move on. Don't bother with getting it ultrasounded, waste of time.

eajohnson
Posts: 64
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:09 pm

by eajohnson

Miller wrote:
eajohnson wrote:it's quite possible to develop an unseen delamination that you can't perceive without equipment (like ultrasound), and when it does fail the failure tends to be catastrophic in a way where serious injury is a definite possibility.


Well, the internet keeps saying that carbon frames will explode at the tiniest hint of damage but all my experience with carbon frames and components is the complete opposite, carbon seems tough as old boots to me. The only frames that have ever broken under me have been metal ones.

On t'other hand if you want a new frame after 5 years that's perfectly reasonable and I'm sure you'll love the Bianchi. Sell the old one and move on. Don't bother with getting it ultrasounded, waste of time.


It all depends on your tolerance for risk (low, in my case), and my frame has had its share of bumps. You're free to do what you like based on your tolerance for risks and what you know about your bikes' histories, and I'll do the same for myself and my bikes. I know first hand carbon does break on bikes, I had a CF rear derailleur 'explode' on me a few kms from the end of a race (CF let go around a couple of the parallelogram pivots so the parallelogram sprung open and the derailleur twisted sideways). I ran the bike to the finish in my socks, in the rain. It was a great moment in a way and worth the price of a new derailleur (the best stories are always when things go wrong), fortunately it wasn't a safety critical failure. Carbon is not magic, it can break.

nestornnk
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by nestornnk

Have you consider the Colnago V1R?
A perfect racing machine and comfortable enough for long rides.

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zappafile123
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by zappafile123

Since writing my response, I've managed to have a few solid rides on the Ridley Helium SL. I've also managed to acquire a very cheap Super Size Evo hi-mod from 2013. I paid $1200 for the frame and tested it with Campagnolo Neutron Ultra alloy wheels and Xentis Squad 5.8 carbon clinchers.

In a nutshell, the Helium SL has a very forgiving ride quality. It has a nice energy/liveliness to its road feel, its exceedinlgly plush (for a 'racing bike') and has excellent sure-footed handling characteristics. The frame really is ideal as an all-day cruiser; The geometry is very laid back and with the buttery smooth absorption of most road imperfections its like rolling around on a couch. If I were to characterise its road feel, I'd say its 'charming' - soft, friendly, a little muted and not in your face.

To get my ideal position, I rode an XS with a 130 mm stem. Its novel riding a bike thats too small for you... I should ride a small, but to get low enough I'd have needed a -17 degree stem. (and I usually have ~9.5cm of drop which isnt outlandish).

The major cost of these features is bottom bracket stiffness and responsiveness. Of the bikes I've ridden and owned, this frame is towards the bottom of the pile in terms of power transfer. The bike doenst feel agonisingly slow, but it doesn't give you that snappy little kick that makes any racer smile. Rather, its just above the threshold of being adequately stiff. In a racing situation, I didnt feel like the bike was holding me back as it does some to hold its speed reasonably well. At the same time however, it didnt feel like it was going to give me a competitive advantage. Despite its design purpose, its a poor climber as it doesnt feel taught enough under lower cadence, high torque scenario's. The only thing that makes it good for climbing is the laid back geometry and the light weight.

Overall the bike is like a prawn - gorgeous body, excellent characteristics all round - 9 for comfort, 8.5 for handling 8.5 for weight - but it has an ugly head - a 5 for power transfer. The Helium is for someone who doesnt want an out n' out racer, but doesnt want their torso perpendicular to the ground ('endurance' geometry). I'd recommend shallow profile to 40 mm deep wheels. 58 mm deep wheels just felt wrong.

I havent had a solid ride on the SS Evo yet, but a brief side to side comparison with the Helium promises better stiffness and a faster feeling ride with less plushness.
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Fiery
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Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:21 am

by Fiery

If the bike fits well and rides well, then it's the right size. The nominal size doesn't mean anything in and of itself.

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