Colnago C60 Traditional vs Slooping vs Pinarello Dogma F8

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3Pio
Posts: 1581
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

Calnago wrote:Slacker seat tube angle will be further back. Steeper will be further forward. A little trigonometry can find exactly where (given a saddle height) that intersection will be.


If my saddle height is about 72cm-72.5cm from centar of bottom bracket, how much difference would be between 50s and 55 in term of Saddle Position compared to vertical centar of bottom bracket? (Lets say Variant of SCS but compared to Saddle position)

And please the same info for 70cm saddle height.

I would really appreciate if u calculate this for me

Thanks a lot

by Weenie


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AJS914
Posts: 5397
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

A good starting point is knowing your current seat tube angle and whether it is working for you. And how much setback is on your current seatpost?

Unfortunately a 50S has a 74deg STA which is fairly steep. The 55 traditional has a 73.57deg STA.

You can also get a seatpost with more setback than the Colnago post if necessary.

3Pio
Posts: 1581
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

AJS914 wrote:A good starting point is knowing your current seat tube angle and whether it is working for you. And how much setback is on your current seatpost?

Unfortunately a 50S has a 74deg STA which is fairly steep. The 55 traditional has a 73.57deg STA.

You can also get a seatpost with more setback than the Colnago post if necessary.


Thats why im not sure which size to get. 50S have 74 deg, fairly step and as i understund not that long femur friendly.

In this moment i ride 53 cm Pinarello (which have 73.7 deg seatpost tube), and on this bike with the saddle all the way and 72.5 cm saddle height from the bottom bracket, in the max rear saddle position on the rails, im still a bit in the front of the pedal axle (few mm). This is the saddle height that im riding, but when we check for Hip Rocking, there is it. So i put the seatpost a bit down (2 cm), no Hip Rocking, but im totaly in the front of the PedalAxle.

In this moment i use Seatpost with 25mm setback (same as colnago's), and im not sure that more setback would help becouse maybe i'll fix the problem with KneeOverAxle, but it would put me totaly in the rear end, so probablu there would not be a good weight distribution (too much weight on the back).


Why im not just getting 55? Becouse my dealer recommend me 50s even with this problem (and as u also realized it have step angle, and not that friendly for my problem). Also Pinarello Dealer based of my measuring recommend 51.5cm (which also it wont help with KNOPS, but at least Pinarello have slacker angle 51.5cm have angle of 73.70 deg, and also is much lower (125mm for 51.5 CM Dogma F8 compared to 144 mm for my Fp3). On Fp3 in this moment i have 1 cm of spacers

i can send u few pictures to see my position on current bike, and based on that i would love to hear opinions about proper size


p.s. I know it would be much easier to check with dealers, but they are 1000 km away from my place, so it's not that easy to do it. And also they dont have C60 in stock in 50S or 55 to be able to try

fogman
Posts: 1067
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:36 pm

by fogman

Compare the Stack and Reach of the Colnago with that of the Pinarello. That should give you a good starting point for comparing the 2 frames geometries.

F8 (Size 51.5) Stack = 527, Reach = 380
C60 (Size 50s) Stack = 547, Reach = 383


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It's all downhill from here, except for the uphills.

AJS914
Posts: 5397
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

In this moment i ride 53 cm Pinarello (which have 73.7 deg seatpost tube), and on this bike with the saddle all the way and 72.5 cm saddle height from the bottom bracket, in the max rear saddle position on the rails, im still a bit in the front of the pedal axle (few mm). This is the saddle height that im riding, but when we check for Hip Rocking, there is it. So i put the seatpost a bit down (2 cm), no Hip Rocking, but im totaly in the front of the PedalAxle.



On the 50S you are going to be in the exact same position. There is .3 degree difference is small and essentially you'll encounter the same challenges.

Do you need KOPS? KOPS is a completely arbitrary reference point. I like Steve Hogg's method of determining saddle setback:

https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bi ... oad-bikes/

For me, his method results in KOPS. :-)

3Pio
Posts: 1581
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

Ok.Im sending u a pictures of my self on Pinarello Fp3 53 cm size.

crankset: 172.5 mm

Handlebar: 42cm c-c (125mm drop, 80 mm reach)

Stem: 110mm , -6 deg

Seatpost with 25 mm setback

I gain some weight during last few months (i had a lot of work and a lot of sitting in front of the computer, and also had some injuries so not able to ride). I measure today my self, and i gain 13 pounds of weight since November (even bigger reason now to be back on bike as soon as possible). Im telling this in term of my normal flexibility.

The first position, is the position that i actually ride on this bike.

But also when i put the heels on the pedals, and pedaling backwards, i found out that there is hip rocking, so probably i have seat higher then it should be (i ride like this last few months for sure, maybe more). Probably im doing this to compensate somehow with my long femurs and to be as close for KOPS as possible (i didnt looking for KOPS. I just adjusted the position that its ok for riding, and after that checking all the measurments. Still, i cant say this is ideal position. Specialy When im climbing i can feel that something is not ideal.Another possability of Hip Rocking is that maybe becouse i gain weight and because of a lot of sitting in front of comp, i lost some of flexibility.

Ok, pictures of that position:

1. Stem Spacers Image

Image

2. Saddle Height

Image

Image

3. Saddle Fore-Aft

Image

4. Knee Over Pedal Axle

Image

Image

Image

5. Side Pictures

http://imgur.com/a/B0iqr


Then there is Second Position that i tried. In this position tried to reduce Saddle Hieght until there were not anymore Hip Rocking while pedaling backwards, Heels on pedals. This is not position i ride, but tried to adjust the saddle height based on NoHipRocking


I didnt changed Spacers under the stem, just Saddle Height, and tried to put Saddle even more front (in the position where is not allowed becouse im passing Stop Mark on the Saddle Rails)

So here it is:

1. Saddle Height

http://imgur.com/a/mvZO0


2. Knee Over Pedal

http://imgur.com/a/XIyWQ

3. Saddle ForeAft

Image

4. SideView

http://imgur.com/a/OR5DL



So again, this second position is not the position i ride in real life. I tried to put saddle down until there is no HipRocking (which maybe in the first position was becouse i lost some flexibility in last months, or maybe i used of riding with too high saddle to compensate for KOPS).


Based on this pictures (u get better idea now i guess)

What do u think its based geometry/size suited for my self:


1. Pinarello Dogma F8 51.5 cm

2. Pinarello Dogma F8 53 cm

3. Colnago C60 trad 53 cm

4. Colnago C60 50S

5. Colnago C60 55 Trad (which is very similar as i can see to Fp3 53 cm that i ride now )


And should i stay on 172.5 crankset lenght, or maybe to switch to 170 ?

Thanks a lot. Please share ur opinions, since i want to finnaly choose the right one.

AJS914
Posts: 5397
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

I think you look better on the bike with the saddle lower. In the last pic in the first set of pics with the higher saddle height, your leg looks too extended especially since your toes are pointed down. I wouldn't be surprised if your hips rock.

I don't know about the putting your heel on the pedal test. When you are riding with some effort ask a friend to look from behind to see if your hips are rocking.

3Pio
Posts: 1581
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

AJS914 wrote:I think you look better on the bike with the saddle lower. In the last pic in the first set of pics with the higher saddle height, your leg looks too extended especially since your toes are pointed down. I wouldn't be surprised if your hips rock.

I don't know about the putting your heel on the pedal test. When you are riding with some effort ask a friend to look from behind to see if your hips are rocking.


Probably im going higher with seatpost to compensate somehow for Long Femurs (u see my KOPS when the saddle is lower, im im front of KOPS at least 3-3.5 cm, even that saddle is in Illegall zone on Rails, so imagine how much in front i'll be if put the saddle in legal rail zone).I'll ask a friend to check hip rocking in first position during normal riding, but im almost sure that there is it :).

So the question is.. Based of all this, and since im buying a new frame..

Which one should suit me best ? Is this 53 cm Pinarello good fit to me, so i can choose a new bike as close as possible to this size? (if this is ok, then right size of C60 is 55)

Should i go smaller? Should i go bigger?(now we are talking as geometry and size which would be the best for my body proportions).

AJS914
Posts: 5397
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

Read the link I posted above by Steve Hogg. KOPS is just a reference point but otherwise meaningless. It's better to be comfortable on the bike rather than have your knee in a certain place just because the Italians said to do it that way many years ago.

Also, how is your cleat position? If you put the cleat right at the ball of the foot it will be more forward and also hinder the KOPS position you are trying achieve. Hogg suggests having the cleat more rearward.

https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bi ... -position/

I'm pretty much in the same situation as you. I have a Colnago C59, size 52S. It has a 73.5deg seat tube angle and my seat ends up pushed all the way back. It works fine for me though. I've had bikes with a 73deg seat angle and it's a little better but not much. I guess if I went custom some day, I'd order a 72.5 degree seat tube angle.

Whatever you do, I'd get your position sorted out on your current bike. Get your saddle height lower so hips are rocking. Once you know your perfect position, then you can find the perfect frame. The two frames you are looking at both have steep seat tube angles in your size. It would be a shame to buy a new frame only to carry forward this issue unresolved.

What about a Sarto in custom geometry?

3Pio
Posts: 1581
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

AJS914 wrote:Read the link I posted above by Steve Hogg. KOPS is just a reference point but otherwise meaningless. It's better to be comfortable on the bike rather than have your knee in a certain place just because the Italians said to do it that way many years ago.

Also, how is your cleat position? If you put the cleat right at the ball of the foot it will be more forward and also hinder the KOPS position you are trying achieve. Hogg suggests having the cleat more rearward.

https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bi ... -position/

I'm pretty much in the same situation as you. I have a Colnago C59, size 52S. It has a 73.5deg seat tube angle and my seat ends up pushed all the way back. It works fine for me though. I've had bikes with a 73deg seat angle and it's a little better but not much. I guess if I went custom some day, I'd order a 72.5 degree seat tube angle.

Whatever you do, I'd get your position sorted out on your current bike. Get your saddle height lower so hips are rocking. Once you know your perfect position, then you can find the perfect frame. The two frames you are looking at both have steep seat tube angles in your size. It would be a shame to buy a new frame only to carry forward this issue unresolved.

What about a Sarto in custom geometry?


One of the biggest reason for a new frameset is to finnaly sort out my size and fitting.. If i dont have to i wont go for Sarto because it would be complicated to purchase. Maybe Colnago C60 custom is the answer to my problem?

For me 52S it's not the answer because it have very high headtube, so thats why im thinking about 55 trad (73.57 deg seat tube angle, same as 52s, but with head tube height similar like 50s).

I read SteveHogs articles and if my KOPS were a little bit in front it would be ok.. But since im that much in front im confused :)

I know that Colnago have possability for a custom size, but i still dont know more details about this

I'll send soon pictures of my cleats position, so maybe that can sort out things with canceling some of the option at least :)

Thanks for ur effort

p.s. Pictures of the cleats i'll put in this message in about 30 min, so reply after that.

AJS914
Posts: 5397
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

A pic of the cleats won't help a lot. It's more about the position relative to the ball of the foot (1st metatarsal joint). He's recommending 4th metatarsal.

If you do have your cleat far forward at the ball of your foot then you could experiment with moving it back as he suggests.

BTW, I wasn't suggesting a 52S for you. I was saying that I ride a 52S.

3Pio
Posts: 1581
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

AJS914 wrote:A pic of the cleats won't help a lot. It's more about the position relative to the ball of the foot (1st metatarsal joint). He's recommending 4th metatarsal.

If you do have your cleat far forward at the ball of your foot then you could experiment with moving it back as he suggests.

BTW, I wasn't suggesting a 52S for you. I was saying that I ride a 52S.


Sorry :)

Ok, this is the cleat position (i know it cant be help, but also it can be negative)

Also, left foot is one size smaller then the right one. When i was checking for hip rocking, i had a feeling that left leg is longer then right one. Maybe that is becouse of foot difference, and i still have cleats on same position on both?

Anyway, the cleats position:

Image

Image

So based on all this.. Can u suggest one specific size that i should consider with more chances that would fit me?

AJS914
Posts: 5397
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

No, sorry. :-)

Can you work with a local fitter and get your position dialed in on your current bike. You need to get the saddle height correct and fore/aft position correct.

If you have trouble getting the saddle far enough back, it may be that neither of these frames with steep seat tube angles work for you but if you really want to make it work there is always a seatpost with more setback. You said you have 25mm now. They aren't common but I'm sure you can find one with more.

A steeper seat tube angle also makes for a longer effective top tube (longer reach). Maybe finding a frame with a 73deg STA would end up being a better fit for you?

3Pio
Posts: 1581
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

I think i need to update u about my decision.

At the end i decide to choose from Bianchi Specialissima (i like how it look like, and that is very light), Pinarello Dogma F8 (i like to climb so i thought that it would be best all around and climbing as well) and Colnago C60 (afraid that wont be stiff enough for climbing).

I realized that i really need to do the good fitting, and also to try to test ride the bikes i was interested in buying.

So i could not find the Specialissima for renting or from friend, but i test ride it Oltre XR2 (same geometry) in 55cm, and find it a bit big.

Then i found Colnago C60 in 55 Trad and have it two days for a test.

Few days later, i traveled to Italy and had a chance to test ride Dogma F8 (51.5) (I test ride this with position based on my Rettul fitting)

All bikes i test ride for at least 130 km ride and at least 1300-1400 meters of climb. Just to let u know the most i like it was C60 and on test ride i found out that is stiff enough and comofortable in same time.

Before planning Italy trip, i also arrange professional Rettul Fitting with very experienced fitter there (in Udine), and using Rettul Muve.If someone is in that area i definetly recommend him, his web page: http://ctflab.weebly.com/biomechanics.html He put me in new position and also done frame geometry analysis of bikes i was interested in buying. His opinion was that C60 in 50S is best for me, second Dogma F8 (51.5 or 53 depend what i like), so after that i had luck to find 50S in ArtDecor MHRD on stock and didnt have dilemma to buy it.

I decided to assembly by my self and First i measured the real weight of the frame and fork, and decide to assembly slowly, all by the book :) and to enjoy the process (2-3 days :) )

Finally few days ago i had a first test ride, and today is third one. It's interesting that every test ride i have at least few PR so seem that fitting definetely was something usefull, and also im finding out even more how good is C60 in every condition.

If someone is interested in sharing my exprience with test rides of all three bikes, also some pictures while assembly of my C60 or real weights, i'll share it with pleasure.

Thanks to everybody trying to help me in this process :) If someone have dilemma about C60, i will just tell u that is best bike i ever had a chance to ride

Greetings

by Weenie


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AJS914
Posts: 5397
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

Congratulations! Post some pics.

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