Poll - Does your Bottom Bracket Creak? PressFit Vs Threaded

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Moderator: robbosmans

Does your BB Creak? (Add your Comments on Length of ownership in years or miles)

PF30 Creaks
15
8%
BB86 Creaks
13
7%
BB30 Creaks
22
11%
BB90/92/96 Creaks
3
2%
Pressfit (not listed above) Creaks
2
1%
PF30 Silent
41
21%
BB86 Silent
35
18%
BB30 Silent
32
16%
BB90/92/96 Silent
14
7%
Pressfit (not listed above) Silent
17
9%
 
Total votes: 194

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bigfatty
Posts: 135
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:53 am

by bigfatty

FSA BB386 - creaks like the chubby girls bed next door when her even chubbier bf visits.
i just get used to the noise, slowly getting used to noise on bike too :lol:
at least a can pull it apart and re-grease the bearings individually,

by Weenie


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WannabeWeenie
Posts: 106
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2015 7:05 pm
Location: Minnesota, USA

by WannabeWeenie

I have a BB30 bike with no creaking for 4 years. The Ultegra 6700 crank (with Wheels Mfg adapters) developed a ticking of the NDS arm though. The ticking was fixed with cleaning and relubing of the splines and retensioning the preload screw.

Replaced the BB bearings along with a switch to a Hollowgram crank at the start of the 2015 season and it has been silent so far.

bcmf
Posts: 129
Joined: Fri May 22, 2009 5:00 pm

by bcmf

I had the dreaded UT creak.
Swapped the bearing to aftermarket non campy bearings and havent had a hint of a creak since.
Will be using campy bearings with PT on the winter bike so will see if that creaks!

jorisee01
Posts: 386
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 8:22 pm

by jorisee01

Trying to fix my creaking bb again...
Image


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MisterMuncher
Posts: 268
Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:15 am

by MisterMuncher

Calnago wrote:I agree with MisterMuncher's comments above re getting lucky with your tolerances, but I would say quality of installation is the biggest factor in problem Pressfit BB's. Making sure the bearings are secure and perfectly aligned with each other and stay that way is easier said than done. Whereas it's pretty tough to get a BSA installation wrong provided you have a properly faced BB shell.


Oh, it's certainly not easy, and being or knowing a decent mechanic is half the job. At the back of it all, I will still maintain that knowing your frame is essential. Plug and play is for computers.

highdraw

by highdraw

MisterMuncher wrote:
BhSimon wrote:This poll is great. I’m starting to wonder about factors which influence BF/BB30 creaking, such as the installation process. Do different manufacturers recommend different procedures, such as Loctite vs grease? Perhaps the mechanic is unwittingly using the same procedure for every press-fit BB? Reaming and facing, if necessary?

Clearly it is possible to a have a press-fit BB that doesn't creak, so there must be other factors to consider beyond simply a failure of the press-fit system itself. Regardless, press-fit still sounds more like a nuisance than an innovation for those who have issues.


The issues, such as they are, aren't necessarily of fitting procedure, mechanical competence or various unguents, much less a systemic flaw. it comes down to an understanding of manufacturing tolerance. You can get "big" shells and "small" bearings which will creak like a newlywed's bed, or a good fitting that's silent. I've routinely measured shells and bearings to find matches, even with threaded bearings (which can, and do, have issues. FSA and Tange-Seiki, I'm looking at you). At bottom, bearings are cheap, and at worst easy to return, an issue that doesn't arise if you have an understanding LBS. My old steel has a "tight" threaded shell, My CAAD and Synapse are at slightly different points of the spectrum of BB30, although well within spec. So I get a few bearings and work to spec. It's a near-zero effort, unless your shell is beyond specification, in which case, hit your warranty.

TBH, I think PF gets a bad name because the (temporary) corrective procedure is that bit more arduous than screw-in.


Sorry MM and you know more than most...what you write is simply inaccurate if you really understand all permutations of PF...virgin carbon 46mm ID shell various widths to BB30 with insert molded alloy 42mm ID bores into carbon shell with press fit cartridge BB30 bearings.

Manufacturing tolerance is pretty irrelevant with Loctite. In fact, tolerance variation which is tied to process capability and companion cost is the point of the specific development of a Loctite formula like 609 or 641 which is designed for press fit bores and say a very different formulation than thread locker like a blue 242. With press fit to slip fit bores priority includes serviceability and bearing replacement with deliberate low shear strength. Press fit to light interference bores...the latter making assembly easier only need a little help for bearing retention...but the point is, help IS needed much of the time depending on statistical stack up based upon less than friendly tolerances. Rider strength matters as well in terms of dislodging bearings and making them creak.

Creaking is due to movement. Yes bearings can creak if worn or lack lubrication as well. Bearings can creak with rock solid BB bearing attachment as well due to insufficient crank preload many don't understand...how to achieve it with different crank designs and of course flip side of too much preload will cause premature bearing failure and subsequent complaining on the internet about how bad BB30 is. And yes, bicycle parts and all machines have parts with tolerances...including a Swiss watch movement. And, what is considered an unfavorable tolerance stack up aka closer to a slip fit or low interference fit will creak without Locitite. But with Loctite even a slip fit bearing to bore interface will never creak. A properly installed PF BB will NEVER creak. Yes, the lay public is led astray by ignorance. Even bike shop mechanics fail miserably at times...too often. Yes bike mfr's are complicit, sometimes dramatically and they have evolved their assembly practices on the unsuspecting public and quite shameful...to use consumers as test subjects and this occurs in every industry by lack of due diligence. Specialized for 2015 after many embattled years of trying to upsell their narrow version of PF30 on their top Sworks bikes finally relented and cancelled production of their narrow PF30 which they called carbon OSBB. All they make now on their top race bikes is BB30 which tends to be more reliable because of bore alignment and alloy bore interface versus virgin carbon interface of PF30 and wide shell derivatives. This is because their BB...not the concept but their Delrin bushing and separate BB30 bearing interface was flawed because pressing in cartridge BB30 bearings into an acetyl plastic bushing is going to creak an unacceptable percentage of the time. Loctite is not effective for this material combination. In spite of Specialized inexplicable lack of sourcing of plastic cups with integrated bearings...the entire PF30 industry has gone to integrated bearings and cups whereas there is only one interface to the frame just as with BB30...and neither can or will creak with Loctite with proper crank installation and preload adjustment...another black hole to the lay public who doesn't understand the concept...or why both wave washers and mechanical preload lockrings are both effective...and people on here defending precise rigid spacing which is in opposition to design intent and can hasten bearing wear with just a hint of too much interference.

So for the average guy, as simple as BB's are and they are literally 2rd grade arithmetic for somebody with a design background, yes...they can and will continue to creak. But for somebody who knows how to set up them up...no they won't creak...even with slip fit tolerances because slip fit is taken out of the equation with all modern BB's available now with a proper choice of bottom bracket and Loctite. PF can't creak when properly set up...tolerance stack as it is....MM where I believe you misguide the forum.

So for those that struggle...say you have PF30 and separate and not integrated press fit BB30 cartridge bearings into Delrin cups...don't. This design is poor and Specialized was right to discontinue it..even though it defies understanding why they simply didn't source one of several PF integrated cup/bearing options. Also BB30 will creak like a old bed probably 20% of the time with a low interference tolerance stack up without Loctite. With Loctite...NEVER. But if an owner or mechanic doesn't like a serviceable adhesive developed for slip fit or low interference press like Loctite 609...be prepared you PF owners because unless you hit the tolerance lottery and have a high level of press and/or are a low watt rider...creak, creak, creak. With Loctite which negates movement...silence.

So MM, even a guy like you who knows more than average based upon what you wrote, doesn't have the full lay of the land based upon what you wrote even though you understand the nuance of tolerances and interference fit. PF BB's are pretty much all you get on top frames and BSA as reliable as it is...is the vast exception. So learn to manage them if you want to ride a top race bike in silence. It isn't hard.
Adhesives are here and they desensitize tolerance. Sometime a given design can't even be put together without an adhesive and that's where the problem lay with PF...its can be put together without glue. But if you do, probability of creaking goes way up.

For all you guys who struggle with your BB's...NEVER...I repeat NEVER try to adjust the valves on a 4 valve per cylinder Ducati motorcycle...lol. You have just gone from playing chop sticks on the piano to Mozart.
By the way, I'm not talking about designing the wonderfully intricate Ducati 4v cylinder head which may not even rival Mozart's ability to compose music...but just being able to work on it effectively which maybe the analog to playing Mozart's brilliant compositions as he intended...few among us can do justice to.

MisterMuncher
Posts: 268
Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:15 am

by MisterMuncher

I don't intend to mislead, certainly, and appreciate that Loctite, fitting procedure et al have a role to play, and some setups are inherently flawed. Perhaps my post needed an "all other things being equal" in there. I've just never seen tolerance mentioned in these discussions, and was always the first thing I considered.

FWIW, both my setups have nothing more that a spot of grease on them, and work fine and well, although I'm not that heavy.

Another thing. I've had a few riding buddies with creaking issues of various types. It's pretty strange how the ones with PF BBs go straight for the BB, and the thread-in crowd look for other things first. There's no small amount of confirmation bias in this discussion.

highdraw

by highdraw

MisterMuncher wrote:I don't intend to mislead, certainly, and appreciate that Loctite, fitting procedure et al have a role to play, and some setups are inherently flawed. Perhaps my post needed an "all other things being equal" in there. I've just never seen tolerance mentioned in these discussions, and was always the first thing I considered.

FWIW, both my setups have nothing more that a spot of grease on them, and work fine and well, although I'm not that heavy.

Another thing. I've had a few riding buddies with creaking issues of various types. It's pretty strange how the ones with PF BBs go straight for the BB, and the thread-in crowd look for other things first. There's no small amount of confirmation bias in this discussion.

Not sure your preface of all things being equal would add clarity. Tolerance stack up is the life blood of design. You didn't mention Locitite in your post. Without Loctite the probability of creaking goes way up as I explain based upon what you believe to be tolerance sensitivity. I explained that Loctite takes tolerance out of the equation all the way to slip fit. With fresh bearings, Loctite and correctly adjusted crank preload, a PF BB isn't going to creak. I know that's a lot to ask of home mechanics and even bike shops who erroneously add grease like you did. Grease is the opposite of what you want. Grease promotes bearing movement, not inhibits it. Grease is for the balls in the bearings and to be lightly applied to the spindle. Loctite is to hold bearings in place and or PF30 cups to a carbon shell BB.
Attachments
Cannondale PF30 spec.jpg

MisterMuncher
Posts: 268
Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:15 am

by MisterMuncher

I'm not using PF30, I'm using straight BB30, the spec and shop manual of which specifies grease, not Loctite.

uraqt
Posts: 1108
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 8:53 am

by uraqt

@ highdraw

So, highdraw from reading most of your past posts I know you understand what you are talking about, however I have to disagree ...

"But with Loctite even a slip fit bearing to bore interface will never creak. A properly installed PF BB will NEVER creak. "

As I said in my 1st post in this thread

"My PF experience has been really bad. 1st frame I follow Manufacturer 's directions to the letter and I got 200 miles. (you have to special order the Loctite and primer FYI) 2nd frame shop installed 50 miles. 3rd frame Manufacturer installed 200 miles. 4th frame, changed cranks. "

You can argue I and shop installed the BB incorrectly(I would obviously disagree as I know/feel that I follow the directions correctly) however I don't think we can find fault in the "Manufacturer installed" BB that did creek. ( I was able to tell that the Manufacturer install used Loctite too).

I guess my point is there is a lot of people who's PF bb creak and we all can't be installing the wrong. I know I'm not the smart kid in the class but I did do my due diligence before I installed mine and the fact that manufacturer couldn't get a creek free install leads me to believe there are more issues at play than just incorrect installs.

C

highdraw

by highdraw

MisterMuncher wrote:I'm not using PF30, I'm using straight BB30, the spec and shop manual of which specifies grease, not Loctite.

Here in lies the overarching problem and I touched upon it in my thread. There are divergent messages sent by major manufacturers of PF. As a result the public is handcuffed by mixed messages. The guys that work at bike shops...a very large quantity are like sheep led by the industry. There are an enlightened few that know what they are doing but a large percentage don't. I would love to know the percentage of shops throughout the US that still use grease between bearings and bores for BB30. Sadly the non mechanical public that relies on their bike shops for best practices are misled. BB30 has been around the industry now for years and is more or less the industry standard for PF...largely because of its reliability.
A single interface of bearing to frame. Almost perfect cylindricity...the way the bores are machined for a single insert molded alloy sleeve set in the frame and btw virtually identical to how a BSA alloy sleeve is laid into a carbon frame mold...only BB30 does not have a threads and has lockring slots for bearing perpendicularity...and for all you BSA stalwarts out there...BB30 provides better bearing bore alignment, reduced spindle drag than BSA statistically. And yet, many and perhaps even most shops use grease. If you can find a lingering spec for using grease on BB30...these practices in fact largely generated this poll and interest in it. Practices and manufacturer spec's have evolved is the point, but many including your bike shop and you, haven't. No, it isn't easy for the average guy to sort out. The fact that you would even consider using grease to press in bearings and expect them to stay seated with a lubricant between the bearing outer race and frame shell alloy bore ID says it all. The physics don't work. Grease is the opposite of what you want. If you don't want the bearings to move in their respective bores, an adhesive is desired and NOT a high viscosity lubricant aka grease. Sorry but this is basic.
Here's another basic tenant of living. If you want better traction on the bottom of your hiking boots, don't put grease on your soles....or don't grease your hands if trying to climb a rope...lol.

Specialized has perhaps the greatest R&D of any bike company. There are many examples of this with all their products from their framesets, wheelsets, saddles, handlebars and even shoes. Even this great company which is highly engineering intensive has morphed their BB installation practices and even their BB designs as discussed as the industry moved away from BSA which just 4-5 years ago you could even get on a S-works bike. Specialized in 2015 abandoned their 61mm wide version of PF30 as well.

So I want to post the installation practice for the industry standard BB30 that Specialized uses on their top Sworks, Pro and Expert level bikes. Note they specify green Loctite 640 which is very similar in properties to 609 and 641 also commonly used by the industry.

In summary, the premise of your post about tolerance sensitivity is flawed and will continue to be. Yes installation 'would' be sensitive if you use grease between bearings and bores....because greases 'promotes' bearing movement and not inhibits it.

And if you want a true mixed message about using grease versus Loctite, look no further than Trek's BB90 on their flagship Madone. For all intents, BB90 is simply a wide version of BB30...exact same bearing interface to frame and yet, it would be hard to find a Trek BB specification for Loctite even though Loctite is the best solution if you want to ride a Madone in silence.
Here is public forum that discusses:
http://forums.roadbikereview.com/compon ... 16354.html


Specialized Loctite spec for BB30 below:
Attachments
Speicaized BB30 Loctite Spec.jpg

MisterMuncher
Posts: 268
Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:15 am

by MisterMuncher

Without disputing your findings, anecdotally my setups work, and work well. I'm not talking about grease to plug the gaps and make the tolerance "work". I've fixed that problem before it arises by being selective with the bearings. Multiple methods of producing a flayed feline, I suppose. In fairness, I could well be applying grease simply out of habit or flawed/outdated knowledge of best practice. I'd be vaguely interested in seeing if I could do without it too.

Loctite isn't without value, and can be essential, but I simply haven't required it.

highdraw

by highdraw

uraqt wrote:@ highdraw

So, highdraw from reading most of your past posts I know you understand what you are talking about, however I have to disagree ...

"But with Loctite even a slip fit bearing to bore interface will never creak. A properly installed PF BB will NEVER creak. "

As I said in my 1st post in this thread

"My PF experience has been really bad. 1st frame I follow Manufacturer 's directions to the letter and I got 200 miles. (you have to special order the Loctite and primer FYI) 2nd frame shop installed 50 miles. 3rd frame Manufacturer installed 200 miles. 4th frame, changed cranks. "

You can argue I and shop installed the BB incorrectly(I would obviously disagree as I know/feel that I follow the directions correctly) however I don't think we can find fault in the "Manufacturer installed" BB that did creek. ( I was able to tell that the Manufacturer install used Loctite too).

I guess my point is there is a lot of people who's PF bb creak and we all can't be installing the wrong. I know I'm not the smart kid in the class but I did do my due diligence before I installed mine and the fact that manufacturer couldn't get a creek free install leads me to believe there are more issues at play than just incorrect installs.

C


Just want to share a basic premise with you. Fresh bearings that don't move + crank installed with proper preload = can't creak. This is an immutable law of physics...unless you had defective bearings, a carbon frame with a hairline crank...or PF alloy cups with a crack...a faulty crank etc.

C, the devil is in the details. Yes there are a lot of people with PF BB's that creak. If you go back in time there are a lot of owners of Square Taper cranks that creaked as well...and BSA Campy UT cranks that spawned a crackpot sub culture of hard spacing UT versus using design intent wave washer.

So unless really getting into the weeds of your particular set up...frame...type of bearings...which crank etc...what practices were used...was Loctite adhesion promoter used if the frame was contaminated...etc.

Can you tell me if you even got it to stop creaking? If so, what did it take?...or did you sell the frame. Did changing the crank resolve the issue? If so what crank creaked versus which crank didn't?
Last edited by highdraw on Mon Oct 05, 2015 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

highdraw

by highdraw

MisterMuncher wrote:Without disputing your findings, anecdotally my setups work, and work well. I'm not talking about grease to plug the gaps and make the tolerance "work". I've fixed that problem before it arises by being selective with the bearings. Multiple methods of producing a flayed feline, I suppose. In fairness, I could well be applying grease simply out of habit or flawed/outdated knowledge of best practice. I'd be vaguely interested in seeing if I could do without it too.

Loctite isn't without value, and can be essential, but I simply haven't required it.

Loctite isn't without value? Now that is funny.
Your pedantic chasing of tolerances is a waste of time. Glad you aren't haven't any issue with your set up.

MisterMuncher
Posts: 268
Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:15 am

by MisterMuncher

2 minutes every year hardly counts as a waste of time.

by Weenie


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