Weight Weenies

http://velonews.competitor.com/not-all- ... feit-bikes

The weights of the two framesets — frame, fork, headset, seatpost, and seatpost collar — were comparable. The SL4 weighed in at 1,460 grams, while the counterfeit weighed in at 1,570 grams.

The genuine SL4 uses carbon cups integrated into the frame’s head tube, while the counterfeit uses alloy cups bonded into the frame.

The results showed the counterfeit to be over 11 percent less stiff than the SL4.

I believed they were using the same molds,” Parsons said of the counterfeit frame he purchased. “There is no scenario [where] I could recommend a knockoff frame to anyone. They’re terrifying. At minimum, it will result in a terrible crash.”

To me, this article is a no-brainer. If you're buying a counterfeit frame, you're buying it because it looks like something specific. What remain to be tested are the real open-mold frames, compared to some other known-good brand name bikes. But it is a stretch to go from "the frame is 11% less stiff" to "At a minimum, it will result in a terrible crash". That strikes me as just fear-mongering. I don't think anyone expects a true Specialized S-Works to come from alibaba, but I think it is reasonable these days to find some safe, well-engineered bikes out there.

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Maybe Specialized have noticed a drop in sales and needed another sponsored piece in velonews?

Yeah, people aren't blowing up their fake frames right and left. Know lots of folks on Chinarello's that are happy enough. However, anyone wo thinks they're getting the same layup is a fool.

That said, I ride Chinese carbon, but open mold.

glepore wrote:That said, I ride Chinese carbon, but open mold.

I think the majority of people buying China do go down this route - at least they have a name to support. Or perhaps they were too afraid they might be good value for money.

I don't dispute that they're decent value for the price, my concern was just that it was form over substance. Maybe fooling myself.

The article is really bad journalism. Unfortunately, we will probably never see an unbiased test unless someone completely independent of the cycling industry conducts one.

Still, fake frame = bad.

I ride 2 open mould frames (road and CX) and I'm very happy. I've done almost 200 vertical kilometers (!) of descending on my FM-066, on carbon clinchers too.

stubob wrote: I don't think anyone expects a true Specialized S-Works to come from alibaba, but I think it is reasonable these days to find some safe, well-engineered bikes out there.

Who cares? If you buy a fake you're still buying illegal goods from criminals, and stealing from the companies who invest in the R&D that moves the sport forwards.

Crashing on a counterfeit frame is karma for being an amoral cheapskate.

+1

While most people know that buying from Alibaba will get them a fake version that somewhat looks like the original, some people think otherwise. A guy I mountain bike with always tells me I need some Light Bicycle wheels like he has because LB, "used to make the Tarmacs and use the same mold as the Roval wheels."

The article showed the fake frame had poor design and was less robust. That doesn't mean a typical rider would necessarily snap it. But it's been shown here some of the fakes have even used fiberglass, which would be even worse.

These are different than oem frames which are more legitimate.


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A manufacturer that decides to copy a design all the way down to the graphics, shows the intent of the manufacturer. Understanding that, do you really think that they would spend more money on building it right? I would expect the build would be focused on saving money.

^ +1

Another way to sum it up is: Never trust a crook.

That article was very poorly written and testing was not rigorous at all.

In my lab when we compare structures/frames (of things much bigger than bikes) I would have measured 3 samples each:

All samples:
1) measure dimensions and tolerances (alignment of axles, bb, etc) using 3D coordinate measuring device
2) measure performance - stiffness when loaded on seat, bars, cranks independently and with combined loading

Sample 1
3) quantify durability - do stepped combined loading until failure

Sample 2
4) destructive testing measuring parent material properties, tube geometry, layups, etc (like they did)

Sample 3
5) build up for double-blind on-road testing to see if any differences can be sensed. Also record all build issues.

They only did step 4, which yields an incomplete result upon which no valid conclusions can be made.

I think the article confused 2 things - counterfeiting (which is illegal and wrong) and Chinese built carbon bikes (which have loads of success stories).

wingguy wrote:

stubob wrote: I don't think anyone expects a true Specialized S-Works to come from alibaba, but I think it is reasonable these days to find some safe, well-engineered bikes out there.

Who cares? If you buy a fake you're still buying illegal goods from criminals, and stealing from the companies who invest in the R&D that moves the sport forwards.

Crashing on a counterfeit frame is karma for being an amoral cheapskate.

I know everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but this seems like a kind of absurdly black and white statement, kind of like the "if you buy a pirate DVD you support terrorism" ad campaign. I happen to be of the opinion that the situation is more nuanced.

Yes, to make and sell those bootleg frames in the USA would be illegal, and it is probably illegal to import them, but it may or may not be illegal to do in another country depending on if Spz has filed a trademark in that country. I would hope that Spz has done so in China, but it isn't a given. Similarly, if you buy something from another country where it is legal, and have them ship it to you where it is illegal, where did the transaction actually take place?

Secondly, I would argue that the actual theft or damage to the companies that invest in R&D is negligible or even non-existent. The buyer of a bootleg frame is going to be a cheapskate trying to save a buck while keeping the "cool" image, and is highly unlikely to have purchased a genuine frame at full price. One could even argue that they are providing advertising services for Spz while riding around on their bootleg frame, so Spz is better off with them on the fake rather than a (higher quality) open mold frame.

And when the poor quality fake frame is inspected and found to be poorly done, should Specialize get that kind of advertizing too? If it does break, then what? If your so vain to have to buy a fake, then you're probably not going to tell people it's fake. Surely when someone rides by and say 'nice bike', the response will not be 'it's fake'.

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