preview: Al33 kickstarter launch (new 33mm deep toroidal shaped aluminum rims (465gram) + wheels)

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NovemberDave
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by NovemberDave

Multebear wrote:@NovemberDave

That sounds definitely interesting. And you're sure this rim is more aero than 303?

You mention another aero alloy rim. Which one is that?


Equivalent to a 303, not more aero. Definitely did not ever say more. In our final analysis I think we gave the 303 a 4mm advantage over the Al33 and XR31T in the 40k TT. Tunnel test results are here. http://www.novemberbicycles.com/blog/2017/2/9/wind-tunnel-testing-the-al33-xr31tfsw3-and-other-alloys.html The post following that one has more detail and explanation. http://www.novemberbicycles.com/blog/2017/2/10/wind-tunnel-testing-the-al33-xr31tfsw3-and-others-part-2.html

In any case, the differences between the setups we tested, from 303 to HED Belgium+, were small. Something like 6 seconds in the mythical 40k TT. Tour Magazine did a similar test, with broader scope, in their 2016 Issue 8 and came up with similar conclusions. I believe that these combined results speak for themselves, and put to rest the fallacy that you're going to go 1 mph faster (or anything remotely close to it ) by choosing a 45 or 60mm deep wheel versus a good alloy rim.

Our enthusiasm for this rim is composed of a couple of things. First, from what we've seen in testing it since early last summer it's a well made rim that rides very nicely and stays together. Every rim must do that. They are also very nice looking rims, with a pleasing shape and they look great on the bike. I believe that this point is more important to any particular wheel's desirability to people than any other single point, and I say that without being the least bit judgmental about it. No one wants his bike to look less good than it can, all else being equal.

In my personal use of the wheels, I never once felt that I was sacrificing any speed at all, and I'm calibrated enough to how and where and how fast I ride that any real performance anomalies would have been readily apparent to me. I was surprised that the Al33 and Kinlin did as well as they did relative to the 303, but not shocked. I had expected them to be quite close, just not as close as they are.

In order to get more miles onto them, I loaned them to friends I ride with, one in particular had them for an extended amount of time. He currently rides a set of HED C2 with T11s that we built for him, which replaced a set of 40mm deep carbons from the world's second largest cycling brand, with which he had had several problems. His response after riding them for a few weeks was that they're the best wheels he'd ever used and he planned to get a set as soon as possible. People consistently asked the wheels when they were on a bike - "those look cool, what are they?" and that kind of thing.

Another big part of our enthusiasm for the project is that it's nice to see someone giving aluminum a full-blooded effort. Every wheel brand wants to sell you carbon wheels, for multiple reasons all having to do with commercial interest. Carbons cost more, the transactional value of a carbon sale is higher than that of an alloy sale, it's easier to differentiate your carbon wheels in a crowded market, people tend to lump all alloy together as "slow" and "all the same" and not race worthy and uncool and whatever else. So no company that sells carbon is going to spend too much money or trouble promoting alloy because alloy isn't as profitable a business to be in as carbon. The second we did our test with Kinlin XC279 in July of 2014 (it's also included in the Tour Mag test, and scored VERY high marks), our public story became that the aero difference between good and bad alloy was much bigger than the aero difference between good alloy and good carbon, and that knowledge veered us off onto a unique path. We've never seen an alloy rim brought to market with principles so closely matching the ones we've developed along that path.

As far as I can tell, I'm the only one actually involved in the thread who's ridden one of the wheels. The person with complaints about brake track wear isn't on the thread, and I've given my questions about those concerns and contrasted them with our experience, and apart from his coating concern we have no idea how he did or didn't like the wheels. I don't view any coating as permanent, it's certainly a nice feature but not the entire story, and the wheels are available for a lower price without the coating. Wear is a nearly infinitely variable thing, and one needs to look only at experiences with other similar coatings to see that experiences with them vary. I see no reason to hide the fact that I think that carbon wheels are as popular as they are because of how they look, and because of the huge push they are given by an industry that sees more profit in selling them than in selling alloy wheels, so I know that looks are important and are a part of the Al33's story.

Personally, we'll just as happily sell you a set made with Kinlins or any of the other great ally rims we use. For the reasons detailed, we're pulling for the Al33 guys to get going and make a good go of it. As with any other product out there, it will have ups and downs. If they don't handle those well or fail to deliver on the product's promise, they'll struggle. One big headwind right away is the emergence of the new Exalith Open Pro, and we're going to offer them as soon as they're available. I have been predicting that the "black alloy" market will get very crowded very soon, and from the reports from Taipei Cycle Show that prediction is coming true at shocking speed.

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Multebear
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by Multebear

Okay, good sales pitch, I'm convinced.

So where do I get them? I'm in EU, so I obviously aren't gonna order them from US, since they are being manufactured in Belgium.

And how about spoke count? I'm 86 kg, and put out around 1500-1600 watts in sprints. With carbon rims 20/24 isn't a problem. How about these ones? Will I have to go 24/28? And how does that impact aero adding 4 spokes a wheel?

Since I lace wheels myself, I'd only be interested in buying rims. They'll probably be laced to a pair of 240 hubs, I've got laying around if 20/24 is doable.

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ergott
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by ergott

Multebear wrote:Okay, good sales pitch, I'm convinced.

So where do I get them? I'm in EU, so I obviously aren't gonna order them from US, since they are being manufactured in Belgium.

And how about spoke count? I'm 86 kg, and put out around 1500-1600 watts in sprints. With carbon rims 20/24 isn't a problem. How about these ones? Will I have to go 24/28? And how does that impact aero adding 4 spokes a wheel?

Since I lace wheels myself, I'd only be interested in buying rims. They'll probably be laced to a pair of 240 hubs, I've got laying around if 20/24 is doable.


You might want to go 20/28 for alloy wheels. That and I'd also recommend a hub that will result in better lateral stiffness. Can you get the Wheels Mfg. hub there?

http://wheelsmfg.com/hubs.html

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ergott
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by ergott

I'm not surprised with the wear posted earlier. I've seen this ceramic coating before and it would be best to advertise it as temporary. I won't last tens of thousands of miles or anything like that. It will extend the life of the rims since you get that many more miles before you even get to the aluminium.

I have a set I built for myself that I'm giving a go. They built up real nice and so far look promising especially for anyone contemplating shallow to medium depth carbon clinchers. If you are worried about the brake track wear on the ceramic, save the money and consider the standard track. At the cost of those you will get many sets of rims to wear out before you get to the cost of a good carbon rim.

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Multebear
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by Multebear

ergott wrote:
You might want to go 20/28 for alloy wheels. That and I'd also recommend a hub that will result in better lateral stiffness. Can you get the Wheels Mfg. hub there?

http://wheelsmfg.com/hubs.html


20/28 it is then. I'm not sure whether I'll be able to get the Wheels mfg. hubs here. Haven't seen them anywhere in EU. And I won't order them from US due to taxes and importduties. And since a can use at least the 240 front hub, I won't order completely different hubs. Well maybe Tune, since there are occasionally good 2nd hand deals here.

Just out of curiosity, how much of a difference will the 240 make over Wheels Mfg. hubs? I talked to my LBS, where there is a very experienced wheel builder, and he told me, that there's nothing wrong with the 240 hubs. Sure there are hubs out there today with better bracing angle, but the 240s were the bomb 10 years ago, and not that much has happened the last 10 years.

matty
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by matty

glepore wrote:Matty-link? I have a pair on order and am curious.

As to the buzz, for me it comes down to one thing really-wet braking. They're much like a mid depth carbon wheel in performance and weight. I don't do monster descents, so integrity of carbon isn't much of an issue, but wet braking is.


If you google aforce al33 you will find any info you require. I was in for a set of wheels in September, had to google to get updates from November site, Strada, Kickstarter, Facebook etc.

Nothing from the manufacturer themselves and it seems main concern has been supplying the supply chain rather than those who paid money for wheels. Not sure if anyone who just ordered rims got theirs.

had to claim via PayPal after 6 months and no delivery as a lot of money to lose if I did not. Was offered a set at same price so would have new PayPal protection period but exchange rate now makes it more expensive and given up on the product. I have now got Campagnolo shamal ultra for less than the aforce wheels would have cost me.

Multebear
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by Multebear

So, no info on where to get them in EU?

And are there unbiased people out there, who have actually ridden these rims, and who don't make money on them?

NovemberDave
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by NovemberDave

I don't know for sure. Wheel-Tec in Holland is the only place I know for sure doing builds with them, and I've no idea if they're selling loose rims.

We just started shipping out our first builds last week so I don't know how many people you're going to find who've put enough miles on them to give a meaningful impression.

NoMütze
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by NoMütze

As far as i understand Aforce wheels are a part of this shop in the netherlands: http://bellebikes.com/wheel-customizer/
and they are an FB: https://www.facebook.com/A-Force-Bellez ... 7/?fref=ts

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StradaJon
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by StradaJon

Our rider has put 2000 miles on our non coated pair over the winter. He is an ex Alpine ride guide and has been very impressed by the ride quality. He has taken several really heavy hits through some big potholes and they have not lost shape or suffered spoke tension variation. Rim wear rates are as expected.

We have just received a coated pair (pre-built) for evaluation.

You won't find any none business related reviews yet as they have only just been released to the market.
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spartan
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by spartan

the rims look promising but with the new machine made Filament Wound/Weaved carbon rims coming to market i don't see a price advantage of aluminum rims vs carbon.

i checked out price on NovemberCycles on a set of Al33 rims with WH hubs cx-ray spokes total price with shipping ~1000USD

new lechtwerk 45 Evo Road Carbon wheelsets - made in germany no euro taxes ~870USD !!

wheel building machines exist to lower the labour cost even further.. good time to be a consumer
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kulivontot
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by kulivontot

Comparing custom handbuilts to machine built wheels is not valid. There are entire threads documenting that. If you want to discuss the merits of this other set of wheels, carbon vs alloy, or handbuilt vs machine built please do so in a separate thread to keep this one on topic.

glepore
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by glepore

Its not about price. I've had some perfectly serviceable $400 carbon wheels from asia and the A33's are close to double that. Its the braking difference and the other reasons that Dave set forth. In fact, just ordered latex tubes.
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AJS914
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by AJS914

If you could buy them, how much are the rims right now? Looking at their Kickstarter page, it seems that the full retail cost is $125 Euros each. I'd imagine that after the initial demand slacks off and they move on to a better economy of scale, the retail price of these rims goes below $100/each. Or actual street price is lower.

There are competitors in this category. The Kinlin XR31T only costs $75. The Easton R90SL is about the same price. It kind of makes me wonder why the Airforce is getting so much buzz. People aren't rushing to buy the Kinlins which test similarly.

How long does it take for high quality carbon rims, with high temperature resins, made by a reputable company, to hit $100? It's going to be a while. I wouldn't hold my breath for the filament wound stuff.

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dj97223
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by dj97223

AJS914 wrote:It kind of makes me wonder why the Airforce is getting so much buzz.


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